Frank Yang's video response to Leo's video - about stage Turquoise

[GreenWoods]

8 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

I don't think Frank is at all saying what this guy is saying.  Find my comment in the OP's video on frank yang, in which he responded to (I go by Into The Unknown on youtube).  He explains in further depth what he's trying to say.  I feel on some level he's pointing roughly the same thing Leo is in many ways, with less emphasis on You are consciously creating everything and more emphasis on Its arising as everything of no-ones volition or intention (this idea is a very eastern thought idea from what I've learned from Alan Watts, and is one I hold highly as well).  Frank seems to have a different idea of development through stages than Leo on some level, but admits that these can be thrown out eventually and aren't holy rules in which all who awaken follow these linear sequences. 

@Mu_ Yes, from that response, and from the few videos I've seen from him, he indeed doesn't seem to say the same as the guy in that video. I mentioned Frank's name in that post because at one point I think he said that Consciousness is impermanent.

I really like Frank and consider him very awake. But I think there are deeper levels to some of the things he said. For example his mention of the natural state. That just seems like a thing of the ego.

 

5 minutes ago, RedLine said:

Because reason is you trying to change reality, it is an ego (egoism) activity. Reason is you trying to escape from present moment. Reason is desire. If you would be 100% satisfied with the present moment, why would questions (reason is basically answers to questions) arise? 

 @RedLine  Accepting the present moment and trying to escape from it, are both part of the same game.

[Leo Gura]

Do not confuse Absolute Truth with permanence of state.

All states are Absolute Truth.

Never forget: There can only be ONE thing. That ONE thing must be Absolute Truth regardless of what form or shape it takes or how long it lasts. And that thing must be absolutely unlimited and self-created. And it must love itself.

[Danioover9000]

@Raze

On 15/05/2021 at 11:57 PM, Raze said:

EDIT:

Frank made a video about it

 

   Thanks to you and Frank, Leo released an advanced explanation of god realization. Without this coming up, we would've had a different video. So thanks.

[Superfluo]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Luckily I'm conscious that I'm God right now.

I think that's what Bashar meant in his video about psychedelics, where he/she/it said that you could access that state "tuning" into it without taking them.

[Leo Gura]

45 minutes ago, Superfluo said:

I think that's what Bashar meant in his video about psychedelics, where he/she/it said that you could access that state "tuning" into it without taking them.

It's not even close to the full God state, but I can recognize God in any state.

It's more a question of degree

And the degree is important. Especially if you've never hit the peak degrees. A traditional meditator cannot really appreciate what God is. They might have a taste of it, but not the full scale reveal.

It's like the difference between seeing a vagina from 1000 ft away vs sticking your head inside one.

[Superfluo]

@Leo Gura Yes. Also, you may have gotten closer to God than Bashar has. Who knows.

[vladorion]

9 hours ago, Mu_ said:

Interesting video.  I'm not sure how I feel on what he's sharing.  I don't know if I've heard of cessation ever described that way, it honestly sounds pointless in a way.  Most interpretations of cessation I've heard or read about is a connection so to say to no-time, no-dimension, no identification, no pushing or pulling anything, and as such its generally blissful, and fulfilling in a way that is undescribable. 

The way he describes it, which I would not know why anyone would want to try to do so since you can just go to sleep or have someone punch you unconscious and still go through what he's saying is cessation.  I mean if you learn to appreciate it after it happens, by all means, however you can just appreciate with love and gratitude after waking up from sleep every morning and not dedicate any time toward the type of cessation he is talking about.

The point of cessation is not to have a cool experience.

The point is that once you have a cessation, your perception of yourself and the world is permanently changed. That doesn't happen from sleeping or passing out. 

[herghly]

everything below turquoise is ego.. I don't think frank understand SD. Most people confuse it as a map of awakening, which it is not

[Leo Gura]

Turquoise has ego.

[roopepa]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Luckily I'm conscious that I'm God right now.

I am not in full God mode, but I don't need to be. All modes are God and the highest mode cannot be sustained by a human anyway.

Where would you place yourself on the evolutionary models? Let's say, Wilber's AQAL. Nowadays, are you beyond late vision-logic most of the time? Do you consider supermind as full God-mode?

Am I stupid for even asking this?

Edited May 17, 2021 by roopepa

[Mu_]

4 hours ago, vladorion said:

The point of cessation is not to have a cool experience.

The point is that once you have a cessation, your perception of yourself and the world is permanently changed. That doesn't happen from sleeping or passing out. 

Maybe I should watch the whole video before saying anything more, but that type of goal "to find a new perception and a permanent world shift" is the goal of many types of practices or atleast the goal of the student/teachers hope for the student sometimes.

[Rajneeshpuram]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Plot twist: cessation itself is something you're imagining right now. It never happened.

You guys don't appreciate how fucked up this gets. Everything you think happened to you, never happened. Every single one of your prior awakenings is imaginary and designed to keep you from realizing you are God right now.

You are constructing a Buddhist dream when you tell yourself, "I went to a Buddhist retreat last year. I meditated for 10 days, and I had a cessation. I realized the Buddha's highest teaching." << THAT is the Buddhist dream! You are not God-realized.

Deny it all you want. That's exactly what you do to maintain your dream.

What you think about Frank pointing that consciousness is impermanent? This is a total game changer, because God by definition is infinite and eternal.

[Consilience]

10 minutes ago, Rajneeshpuram said:

What you think about Frank pointing that consciousness is impermanent? This is a total game changer, because God by definition is infinite and eternal.

Frank calling consciousness impermanent is the Buddhist notion of consciousness. Awareness is impermanent, and awareness can replace Yang's definition of consciousness here if he's going by traditional Buddhist definitions. The consciousness that Leo is talking about, in Buddhist terms, is Nirvana. Peter Ralston also makes this same distinction between awareness and consciousness, although I only learned that from a workshop I attended awhile back. At the time, I had no idea how there could be a distinction between awareness and  consciousness. 

In Buddhism, there's the Jhana of infinite consciousness, this is NOT Consciousness with a capital C. It is a (mis)translation pointing really to an absorption state of infinite awareness, awareness becoming infinitely aware of itself. This, however beautiful, is not God, or Consciousness. 

Awareness is impermanent. Every time you go to sleep you lose awareness. Pure, formless consciousness, or God, remains.

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Rajneeshpuram said:

What you think about Frank pointing that consciousness is impermanent? This is a total game changer, because God by definition is infinite and eternal.

You are conscious right now.

This consciousness is Absolute and Eternal and God and Truth and Love.

I told you before and many times, how long a thing lasts is irrelevant to it's Truth.

If you do not realize that all states and experiences are Absolute Truth, you are not conscious of what Truth is.

Absolute Truth is not some special place to go to. It is everything you see right now.

It is wrong to regard only cessation as Absolute Truth or God. That's just more duality. Entering cessation is not at all necessary for realizing Absolute Truth. This is so obvious I feel dumb just for having to say it.

All impermanence is Absolute and Eternal.

[knakoo]

On 16/05/2021 at 11:54 AM, Enlightenment said:

I think Frank misunderstands Leo. When he says I've been there in God-consciousness/realization state persistently over a year and a half and then went beyond to completely lose any center - this is not a state Leo talks about

I also went through the stages to completely lose the center, like that bubble of self gets bigger and bigger until it dissolves completely but those are all still unalerted states of consciousness "sober" states. They don't feel nearly as solipsistic as 5-MeO trips, not even close.

It's important to make this distinction because Leo talks about more ecstatic states which are clearly "alerted" states of consciousness. There's a pretty clear sort of feeling to them like when you snort 5-MeO and start to feel the effects, it's pretty clear you've ingested the substance and it's alerted state now. There's no such feeling to natty states Frank talks about, but as a tradeoff you miss a shitton of ecstasy and deep "understanding" Leo would call it

At the same time, Frank has this obsession with "it" having to be a natural state which is unalerted. I personally don't see why a constant state of 5-MeO (even if alerted and chemically, artificially induced) wouldn't be "it"

I agree with Frank about cessation showing clearly consciousnesses impermanence. And the problem is that Leo should IMO become much better meditator to have a more complete understanding and Frank should do more powerful psychedelics now, after his center/self-loss

Frank misses much much deeper levels of solipsistic God discovery and Leo misses dependent origination, cessation expieriences

 

So I copied and pasted the comment above in the youtube video comment section. Following was Frank responses :

"This is spot on hahaha amazing summary. So this really comes down to "exploring altered states of consciousness" vs "enlightenment" the 2 overlap but they're not exactly the same. I tend to lean towards enlightenment work and Leo consciousness work. So it's actually a sweet combo for people who are interested in both. I'm willing to try psychedelics more yes but I haven't felt a calling for it yet. I think it's cool Leo and I share a lot of similar stuff but also coming from different angles and people are exposed to both enlightenment is an un-altered states of consciousness while the stuff Leo talks about is not, but that does not mean you can't explore altered states from the Full Natty State. But the thing I wanted to point out is the difference between the 2, since most people confused enlightenment with exotic altered states of consciousness.

Ps. I kinda let go of the idea and attachment that sober way is the way. I see both meditation and enlightenment as both just being tools, and the effects and content of both techniques are mainly the dissolution of the separate self. This does NOT mean you can't explore those content."

[Being Frank Yang]

On 2021/5/16 at 5:54 PM, Enlightenment said:

I think Frank misunderstands Leo. When he says I've been there in God-consciousness/realization state persistently over a year and a half and then went beyond to completely lose any center - this is not a state Leo talks about

I also went through the stages to completely lose the center, like that bubble of self gets bigger and bigger until it dissolves completely but those are all still unalerted states of consciousness "sober" states. They don't feel nearly as solipsistic as 5-MeO trips, not even close.

It's important to make this distinction because Leo talks about more ecstatic states which are clearly "alerted" states of consciousness. There's a pretty clear sort of feeling to them like when you snort 5-MeO and start to feel the effects, it's pretty clear you've ingested the substance and it's alerted state now. There's no such feeling to natty states Frank talks about, but as a tradeoff you miss a shitton of ecstasy and deep "understanding" Leo would call it

At the same time, Frank has this obsession with "it" having to be a natural state which is unalerted. I personally don't see why a constant state of 5-MeO (even if alerted and chemically, artificially induced) wouldn't be "it"

I agree with Frank about cessation showing clearly consciousnesses impermanence. And the problem is that Leo should IMO become much better meditator to have a more complete understanding and Frank should do more powerful psychedelics now, after his center/self-loss

Frank misses much much deeper levels of solipsistic God discovery and Leo misses dependent origination, cessation expieriences

 

This is spot on hahaha amazing summary.  So this really comes down to "exploring altered states of consciousness" vs "enlightenment"  the 2 overlap but they're not exactly the same.  I tend to lean towards enlightenment work and Leo consciousness work. So it's actually a sweet combo for people who are interested in both.  And although we disagree on some parts of the Path I do have a lot of respect for Leo's fearless approach to exploring altered states of consciousness.
I'm willing to try psychedelics more yes but I haven't felt a calling for it yet.

But like I said in there, ego is altered states. Mystical experiences either on psychedelics and meditation is altered states. Natural state is an un-altered states of consciousness.  But that does not mean you can't explore altered states from the Full Natty State. But the thing I wanted to point out is the difference between the 2, since most people confuse enlightenment with exotic states of consciousness.
 

I myself made this mistake before gaining access to the Natural State, as it is impossible to know what ________ is like from both the altered state of self and Self: individual mind and Universal Mind. Now the Natural State is the ______ that "manifest both", a place where one sees clearly and directly that at the "microscopic level" of sensations both are just different reconfiguration of energy and sensations that are dependently arising.

Ps. I also agree with you about being attached to getting to psychedelic states sober but since then I've let go of this. I see both meditation and psychedelics as both just being tools for dissolution and their effects the side effects and by products.  This does NOT mean you can't explore those content. Even post Awakening one can still go back to previous stages and explore their nuances.

But interestingly stated in the video after Realization of No-Self and cleaning out most of my conditions, it is impossible to even call up Jhanas anymore or access Kundalini energies because even jhanas and "chakras" are the by products of the stratums of mind getting dis-embedded and released.

But if you want to get technical the moment to moment experience of the Natural State is very close to the 6th jhana of Infinite Consciousness (Buddha-Mind/Super Witness/One Mind) and the 9th jhana of cessation.  The difference being pre-Realization there was still a 'center' perceiving this field of Infinity, post Awakening the center is dissolved, hence you vanish and die into the present moment to "manifest" all of 'Reality'

'Wisdom is knowing I am nothing,Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.' - Nisargadatta Maharaj sums up the dark light of the Absolute perfectly. 
 

This also mirrors my conclusion that the Natural State/"Buddhahood" is the transcendence and merging of "arhat" and "bodhisattva", where the former is the emptiness/Nothingness/Death/Non-Being phase and the latter is Universal Compassion/Love/Being.  

But of course I'm not talking about the historical Buddha...“There is Buddha for those who do not know what he is really. There is no Buddha for those who know what he is really.” That is, Buddha exists for those who still need an ideal image to aspire to in order to get enlightened, but he doesn’t exist for those who no longer need such a mental prop. The exactly same thing can be applied to God.  

 

 

 

 

[Being Frank Yang]

1 hour ago, knakoo said:

So I copied and pasted the comment above in the youtube video comment section. Following was Frank responses :

"This is spot on hahaha amazing summary. So this really comes down to "exploring altered states of consciousness" vs "enlightenment" the 2 overlap but they're not exactly the same. I tend to lean towards enlightenment work and Leo consciousness work. So it's actually a sweet combo for people who are interested in both. I'm willing to try psychedelics more yes but I haven't felt a calling for it yet. I think it's cool Leo and I share a lot of similar stuff but also coming from different angles and people are exposed to both enlightenment is an un-altered states of consciousness while the stuff Leo talks about is not, but that does not mean you can't explore altered states from the Full Natty State. But the thing I wanted to point out is the difference between the 2, since most people confused enlightenment with exotic altered states of consciousness.

Ps. I kinda let go of the idea and attachment that sober way is the way. I see both meditation and enlightenment as both just being tools, and the effects and content of both techniques are mainly the dissolution of the separate self. This does NOT mean you can't explore those content."

Hahahah thanks I thought I would make an account and discuss it directly with you guys. Thanks for posting

[Being Frank Yang]

On 2021/5/17 at 5:48 AM, Leo Gura said:

Plot twist: cessation itself is something you're imagining right now. It never happened.

You guys don't appreciate how fucked up this gets. Everything you think happened to you, never happened. Every single one of your prior awakenings is imaginary and designed to keep you from realizing you are God right now.

You are constructing a Buddhist dream when you tell yourself, "I went to a Buddhist retreat last year. I meditated for 10 days, and I had a cessation. I realized the Buddha's highest teaching." << THAT is the Buddhist dream! You are not God-realized.

Deny it all you want. That's exactly what you do to maintain your dream.

Yes Leo you are exactly correct. On the Absolute level a cessation is also empty. All of Buddha's teaching and the entire Path becomes the stuff of the dream. Fabrications. Spirituality is just a set of tools for you to ejaculate yourself out of the dream, this includes both psychedelics and meditation. However I'm still going to venture and say cessations when practiced correctly does make permanent changes to the neurons. Something is done to the brain when you train yourself to die and be unplugged from consciousness hundreds and thousands of times.  The permanent perceptual shifts and moment to moment experience that occur after Fruition cannot be denied. The micro phenomenological insights that comes from observing in real time how every experience, from the most Divine to the most mundane, both the content and the context are constructed and fabricated particle by particle is crucial for awakening. And since there is a difference in "order" between unconsciousness and different levels consciousness, which I conclude ultimately leading up to the Natural State being in a different order altogether than both the egoic state and Mystical experiences.

 

but yes Ultimately it makes no difference, and like you said the brain is also just an idea.  
 

 

[Being Frank Yang]

7 hours ago, Consilience said:

Frank calling consciousness impermanent is the Buddhist notion of consciousness. Awareness is impermanent, and awareness can replace Yang's definition of consciousness here if he's going by traditional Buddhist definitions. The consciousness that Leo is talking about, in Buddhist terms, is Nirvana. Peter Ralston also makes this same distinction between awareness and consciousness, although I only learned that from a workshop I attended awhile back. At the time, I had no idea how there could be a distinction between awareness and  consciousness. 

In Buddhism, there's the Jhana of infinite consciousness, this is NOT Consciousness with a capital C. It is a (mis)translation pointing really to an absorption state of infinite awareness, awareness becoming infinitely aware of itself. This, however beautiful, is not God, or Consciousness. 

Awareness is impermanent. Every time you go to sleep you lose awareness. Pure, formless consciousness, or God, remains.

It is neither permanent nor not permanent. All those minor distinctions are beside the point.  You can say the only permanence is impermanent. At the end it doesn't really matter. What it all comes down to is this  - are you living fully in the present moment right now?  Enjoying life at its fullest.  It's that simple hehe. What is God, consciousness, awareness matters only up to a certain point. 

[Being Frank Yang]

On 2021/5/17 at 6:29 AM, tatsumaru said:

Here's what the Buddha taught about non-being and impermanence to his most advanced students (Makes you wonder how enlightened are those preaching non-being and non-self really?)

Tathāgata was the term that Sakyamuni referred to himself as, instead of the pronouns me, I or myself.   Tathāgata is the Buddha that most Buddhists, those on the Long Paths, don’t want to discuss.

“Those who cannot accept that the Tathāgata is eternal, cause misery”-Mahaparinirvana Sutra.

What? How can Buddha say that; didn’t he say everything is impermanent?

The Buddha said the Self is “indestructible like a diamond” -Mahaparinirvana Sutra.

No way! The Buddha said there was no self.

“I will now show you the nature which is not produced and not extinguished” -Shurangama Sutra.

Buddha said that “Buddha Nature [the Tathāgata] is the True Self and like a diamond, for example, it cannot be destroyed” Dharmaksema.

Yes, Buddha taught impermanence, suffering, Emptiness, non-self for child-like students; yet on the day of Parinirvana, the Tathāgata taught eternity, happiness, and the Self, saying , “now, when his students have overcome the sickness of false views and possess a healthy, more mature appetite, he can teach them the Tathāgatagarbha.”

“Those who hold the theory of non-self are injurers of the Buddhist doctrines, they are given up to the dualistic views of being and non-being; they are to be ejected by the convocation of the Bhikshus and are never to be spoken to”-Lankavatara Sutra 765.

So why did Sakyamuni Buddha speak of non-being?

He told a story of a woman with an ailing infant. The sickness of that child requires that it temporarily desist from drinking its mother’s milk while the medicine which has been administered to it is assimilated. To facilitate this, the mother smears her breasts with a bitter substance, and this deters the infant from suckling at his mother’s breasts. But after the medicine has been absorbed, the child can drink the health-bestowing mother’s milk to his heart’s content – although at first he is hesitant and fearful of doing so. This relates to the doctrine of non-Self, Emptiness (which many commentators on Buddhism equate with “non-substantialism” or “non-essentialism”) and Self: when his students are still spiritually “sick”, the Buddha gives them the bitter medicine of “non-Self” and Emptiness; but when they have progressed into greater health and maturity, he teaches them the reality of the Tathagatagarbha. 

A commentator mentions how early in this sutra the Buddha has to reprimand his enthusiastic “non-Self”-championing monks who “repeatedly meditate upon the idea that there is no Self” for being perverse in their understanding of Dharma and wrong-headedly applying the teaching of non-Self where its writ does not run – to the real Self.

“As when a garment is cleansed of its dirt, or when gold is removed from its impurities, they are not destroyed but remain as they are; so is the skandha self freed from its defilements”- Lankavatara Sutra 756.

Correct. Self and no self are exactly the same thing at the end.  Attaching yourself to the lens of no self is the same as attaching yourself to God, emptiness, or any of it.  True Self is no self and anything in between is also IT.  This is why I make a distinction between "stage 4" of awakening as being the emptiness phase and emphasize on the "goal" being the merging and the dis-identification from all stages and every stage/Realization is complete within itself.