The spiral dynamics framework seems flawed

[dlof]

The spiral dynamics framework has never really resonated that strongly with me, but maybe I'm missing something. I struggle to wrap my head around how stage orange is above blue for example... I've read many near death experiences, probably well over a thousand now, involving people who die, experience the afterlife and then come back. These people often talk with highly advanced beings and get downloads of universal truths, have life reviews etc. In none of them did I ever hear that stage orange characteristics are considered more developed than stage blue type characteristics. On the contrary, stage blue people were generally held as much more developed than stage orange people. This came as a surprise to a few atheists who had NDE's who then discovered that these beings considered their quaint religious  neighbours as much more developed than them, even though the atheists thought these people to be pretty dumb. 

This one guy was a materialistic atheist and used to make fun of some Christian group on his campus that would go around trying to convert people to Christianity. And there was this one guy who he thought was crazy who was into Yoga and stuff. This atheist died for a few minutes while under surgery, was in shock that there was an afterlife, and beings of light showed him that the bible thumping Christians were miles ahead of him in terms of development... they also showed him that this crazy yoga guy was even higher than them in development which shocked him more... but the point is that I see this repeated a lot in NDE's, that stage blue seems to be held as higher than stage orange.

[Leo Gura]

Bible Thumbing Christians are obviously not more developed. Just because they dogmatically hold some beliefs which happen to correspond to some mystical truths does not make such people developed. A materialistic scientist is more developed in that at least the scientist is able to be non-dogmatic and to study reality from an empirical perspective. The Blue Christian isn't studying anything and isn't critically thinking about reality at all, he is just parroting words.

Someone who plagiarizes Shakespeare is not a better writer than someone who writes decently but in his own words.

Once you develop an empirical mind, you don't ever go back to being a fundamentalist. This is why Orange is above Blue. A stage Blue person does not yet understand Orange, but a stage Orange person correctly understands that Blue is fundamentalist and dogmatic -- and that this is deeply problematic.

Don't get lost in the content, look at the structures. Be correct on the content is less important than being correct on the structure. The structure in this case is being dogmatic vs being empirical. Being empirical is more developed.

Mysticism is superior to atheism, but atheism is superior to fundamentalist dogma.

Compare the US Founding Fathers and The Constitution vs the theocracy in Iran. Orange vs Blue. Which is more advanced?

You also clearly see that stage Blue politics is way more regressive and problematic than stage Orange politics. Stage Orange politics will be capitalism. Stage Blue politics will be racist and nationalist and theocratic.

If you give stage Blue power, they will turn the country into a theocracy with their religion as king. There is no religious pluralism or tolerance at stage Blue. That only comes online at Orange. Stage Blue will force you to bend a knee to their God. There is nothing developed about that. It is better to bend your knee to a capitalist or a scientist.

[Carl-Richard]

This may be a case of the pre-trans fallacy. When a stage Blue Christian talks about God, his concept of God is very different to the mystical God encountered in deep spiritual experiences. So when a stage Orange person has one of these experiences, he may not realize this distinction and think that the bible thumping Christians are actually onto something, while in reality they're dealing with a dogmatic paradigm and not a mystical paradigm.

[kinesin]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Bible Thumbing Christians are obviously not more developed. Just because they dogmatically hold some beliefs which happen to correspond to some mystical truths does not make such people developed. A materialistic scientist is more developed in that at least the scientist is able to be non-dogmatic and to study reality from an empirical perspective. The Blue Christian isn't studying anything and isn't critically thinking about the reality at all, he is just parroting words.

Your old atheist materialist assumptions are here in full force, Leo.  Such statements based on broad stereotypes are both unhelpful and unrealistic.  You aren't speaking about any real people here, you're only displaying to us your own preconceptions about illusory categories of people.

[Leo Gura]

@kinesin Stop gaslighting me with your ignorance.

[kinesin]

@Leo Gura  What prompted a response such as this?

[Shin]

49 minutes ago, dlof said:

The spiral dynamics framework has never really resonated that strongly with me, but maybe I'm missing something. I struggle to wrap my head around how stage orange is above blue for example... I've read many near death experiences, probably well over a thousand now, involving people who die, experience the afterlife and then come back. These people often talk with highly advanced beings and get downloads of universal truths, have life reviews etc. In none of them did I ever hear that stage orange characteristics are considered more developed than stage blue type characteristics. On the contrary, stage blue people were generally held as much more developed than stage orange people. This came as a surprise to a few atheists who had NDE's who then discovered that these beings considered their quaint religious  neighbours as much more developed than them, even though the atheists thought these people to be pretty dumb. 

This one guy was a materialistic atheist and used to make fun of some Christian group on his campus that would go around trying to convert people to Christianity. And there was this one guy who he thought was crazy who was into Yoga and stuff. This atheist died for a few minutes while under surgery, was in shock that there was an afterlife, and beings of light showed him that the bible thumping Christians were miles ahead of him in terms of development... they also showed him that this crazy yoga guy was even higher than them in development which shocked him more... but the point is that I see this repeated a lot in NDE's, that stage blue seems to be held as higher than stage orange.

Stage blue have more NDEs because they believe in God, Stage orange dudes usually don't.

That's it.

Doesn't change the fact that stage blue is lower than stage orange in term of developement in almost any other way.

You gotta study spiral dynamics more seriously, because either you're still at stage blue and refuse to see there is more growth you could have, or you didn't properly read what spiral dynamics is about.

It's obvious that stage blue is below orange in term of societal evolution, if you take the time to study SD, how countries works/worked (history) and self reflect on your own psyche, there is no doubt about that.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Shin

[Zigzag Idiot]

@kinesin As an outside spectator just running into this thread. I would say he probably strongly disagrees with how you characterized or framed his statement that you referred to. Just my guess.

[Megan Alecia]

Trust me, Stage Orange is better than Stage Blue. Stage Blue countries tend to be poorer because Orange has more technology and intellectuals and just culture in general, not having to worry about poverty and Red exploitation (Duterte, Bolsonaro, Xi) anymore  

Edited May 15, 2021 by Megan Alecia
I live in the Philippines and Blue isn't the stage to produce even pop icons like Madonna/Marilyn Monroe/Obama, which Stage Orange USA did.

[Jodistrict]

Isn’t Spiral Dynamics what the postmodernists call a grand narrative?  It has great explanatory power, but that is part of the problem.  History is neatly categorized into slots conveniently ignoring complexity and contradictions.   I tend to favor the Hindu model, that the world starts in a high state of spirituality and loses the knowledge through time.  Deevolution, not evolution.  

As for stage blue, I have known people from the World War II generation, which was stage blue, and in my opinion, they were more advanced because they were plunged into deeper levels of suffering and needed to develop character to respond.    The fundamentalists beliefs are Bhakti yoga – they keep the left brain occupied so the right brain can develop.    Stage orange is naturally seen as obviously superior to those who value the comforts of materialism, but the plunge into materialism is the deevolution.
 

[dlof]

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Bible Thumbing Christians are obviously not more developed. Just because they dogmatically hold some beliefs which happen to correspond to some mystical truths does not make such people developed. A materialistic scientist is more developed in that at least the scientist is able to be non-dogmatic and to study reality from an empirical perspective. The Blue Christian isn't studying anything and isn't critically thinking about reality at all, he is just parroting words.

Hrm, yeah I've got to think about this. You'd think that loving God is pretty high on the spiritual evolutionary scale even if it comes with some bible-thumping along the way. The endgame of scientism and materialism would be the complete destruction of consciousness as you merge completely with AI, basically the lowest of the low from a spiritual evolution standpoint.

But I can see how being objective and empirical is higher than being dogmatic though. Like I'd put Hermeticism in that catagory and Hermeticists like Franz Bardon in there. They have an almost scientific approach to spirituality which is definitely of a much higher order than bible-thumpers. But as far as I'm aware there's no room in orange for that level of development so I assume is more yellow or something. So that brings me back to having trouble at seeing orange higher than blue. 

Perhaps I'm just having trouble ranking this stuff, like I can see elements of orange which are lower than blue and vice versa, so have trouble seeing one as higher than the other.
 

Quote

Don't get lost in the content, look at the structures. Be correct on the content is less important than being correct on the structure. The structure in this case is being dogmatic vs being empirical. Being empirical is more developed.

Ok that's probably my issue, being empirical is certainly better than being dogmatic no qualms with that. Many of today's scientists remind me of fundamentalist Christians in their dogmatic adherence to the cult of materialism, so I guess that would be kind of a blue thing even though real science should be an orange thing.

 

[Shin]

7 minutes ago, dlof said:

Hrm, yeah I've got to think about this. You'd think that loving God is pretty high on the spiritual evolutionary scale even if it comes with some bible-thumping along the way. The endgame of scientism and materialism would be the complete destruction of consciousness as you merge completely with AI, basically the lowest of the low from a spiritual evolution standpoint.

But I can see how being objective and empirical is higher than being dogmatic though. Like I'd put Hermeticism in that catagory and Hermeticists like Franz Bardon in there. They have an almost scientific approach to spirituality which is definitely of a much higher order than bible-thumpers. But as far as I'm aware there's no room in orange for that level of development so I assume is more yellow or something. So that brings me back to having trouble at seeing orange higher than blue. 

Perhaps I'm just having trouble ranking this stuff, like I can see elements of orange which are lower than blue and vice versa, so have trouble seeing one as higher than the other.
 

Ok that's probably my issue, being empirical is certainly better than being dogmatic no qualms with that. Many of today's scientists remind me of fundamentalist Christians in their dogmatic adherence to the cult of materialism, so I guess that would be kind of a blue thing even though real science should be an orange thing.

 

It's a different kind of flavor of dogmatism.

Blue dogmas are 100% beliefs you have to obey about a book or laws (sometimes without any logic whatsoever),
Orange dogmas have practical utilities (science), so it believes that since the method works, it must be 100% bulletproof and true.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Shin

[dlof]

17 minutes ago, Shin said:

It's a different kind of flavor of dogmatism.

Blue dogmas are 100% beliefs you have to obey about a book or laws (sometimes without any logic whatsoever),
Orange dogmas have practical utilities (science), so it believes that since the method works, it must be 100% bulletproof and true.

You'd think so, but honestly if you start getting into stuff like Near Death Experience research you can see how most scientists are actually unable to approach real science if if threatens their materialistic paradigm. A paradigm which is as flimsy and as "woo" as the craziest New Age stuff when you give it the most cursory thought.

[Shin]

15 minutes ago, dlof said:

You'd think so, but honestly if you start getting into stuff like Near Death Experience research you can see how most scientists are actually unable to approach real science if if threatens their materialistic paradigm. A paradigm which is as flimsy and as "woo" as the craziest New Age stuff when you give it the most cursory thought.

Maybe you're too evolved and can't see the difference (no joke)  

[BipolarGrowth]

3 hours ago, dlof said:

You'd think so, but honestly if you start getting into stuff like Near Death Experience research you can see how most scientists are actually unable to approach real science if if threatens their materialistic paradigm. A paradigm which is as flimsy and as "woo" as the craziest New Age stuff when you give it the most cursory thought.

How are you sure it’s a good idea to equate NDEs to stage blue? Honestly NDEs disprove much of stage blue due to the relativity involved. If everyone went to Christian heaven or hell during NDEs, that would be support of stage blue although that still is only a small portion of stage blue. NDEs are much more supportive of stage green and beyond due to it requiring a superior than stage orange or blue outlook to even have a chance of making sense of NDEs in general. NDEs will eventually contradict something about most religions. 

[Moksha]

I had never heard of spiral dynamics before joining the forum. My immediate instinct was that it is just another puzzle trap of the egoic mind. We want to gauge our spiritual progress, against some model, which is such a joke from the ultimate perspective. Stages are nothing more than cloudy staircase steps within the dream.

[dlof]

52 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

How are you sure it’s a good idea to equate NDEs to stage blue? Honestly NDEs disprove much of stage blue due to the relativity involved. If everyone went to Christian heaven or hell during NDEs, that would be support of stage blue although that still is only a small portion of stage blue. NDEs are much more supportive of stage green and beyond due to it requiring a superior than stage orange or blue outlook to even have a chance of making sense of NDEs in general. NDEs will eventually contradict something about most religions. 

I completely agree, NDE's disprove the dogmatic thinking and many other elements of stage blue.

My point though was that in several of these experiences it was shown that people who follow and love God are more evolved and developed than materialists. Referring to my original post, in one particular experience, a group of "bible thumpers" were shown to have a good heart as they love God and wanted to spread the message. It was shown that they were more evolved than those with just a materialistic paradigm. He was also shown that this Yoga guy who was thought to be crazy was actually more developed than the 'bible thumpers' as well which shocked the atheist NDE experiencer. 

So I wasn't saying that NDE's are equated to stage blue at all, instead I was pointing out that in many of the experiences, stage blue people are shown to be more developed than stage orange people, if you take dogmatic religious people as stage blue and atheist materialists as stage orange. But from what I gathered from Leo's replies, it seems my understanding of stage blue and orange may not be entirely correct... what I've taken from that is that perhaps the 'bible thumpers' weren't stage blue after-all and perhaps the atheist wasn't stage orange. I can't say I completely understand that yet, but that's my take-away so far.

[AtheisticNonduality]

Stage Blue people don't worship God. They worship an egregore.

[dlof]

4 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Stage Blue people don't worship God. They worship an egregore.

Hard not to, God is unknowable by the human mind. 

[dlof]

51 minutes ago, Moksha said:

I had never heard of spiral dynamics before joining the forum. My immediate instinct was that it is just another puzzle trap of the egoic mind. We want to gauge our spiritual progress, against some model, which is such a joke from the ultimate perspective. Stages are nothing more than cloudy staircase steps within the dream.

I'd usually think of it in the framework of chakra development. Like stage red sounds a lot like people being focused primarily on the lower chakras without any higher chakra activity. Blue as open throat, the beginning of the opening heart and slight opening of the crown chakra, but closed 2nd and brow chakras. Orange as similar to red with powerful lower  chakras but also with a strong brow and throat chakra activation. Green as opening of the heart chakra and weakened lower chakras and maybe less powerful brow chakra than orange.