Personal Development With Enlightenment

[Chrissy j]

This might be kind of a newbie question but I was wondering what is the point of personal development and self growth with consciousness work? I mean, I get you should be  happy and confident in life already so you can focus on consciousness work without worrying about your bad life. That would be a good use of personal development. To make life awesome now. But once you reach that point should you even do personal development and grow yourself anymore? Wouldn't it be better to do just full time work "towards" enlightenment? How does personal development apply to your life at that point? And how relevant is personal development and self growth post enlightenment when you realize there is no-self?

[Leo Gura]

The reality is you need it.

Enlightenment without personal development work produces enlightened assholes and rubes.

Personal development without enlightenment produces polished egos who can never find fulfillment no matter what they achieve. This would be like the Tony Robbins effect (sorry, Tony, my projection )

After enlightenment you still need to master the following things:

• Relationships
• Socializing
• Science
• Business/career
• Family
• Health
• Bad habits & addictions
• Bad cultural conditioning like sexism or racism
• Embodiment of unconditional love
• Old childhood traumas
• Ethical behavior

[Richard Alpert]

"Enlightenment without personal development work produces enlightened assholes."

For some reason i thought Rali here, although i like him. Lol

[Chrissy j]

@Leo Gura Thank you! I'm excited to see where both of these together can take me by the end 

[Prabhaker]

There are mystics who are enlightened but illiterate , they know nothing about worldly affairs, never become famous and teach others. 

[Leo Gura]

Dude... I study this stuff for a living. What I'm telling you is cross-referenced from dozens of highly authoritative sources.

You need to do more research before laying on the cheeky skepticism.

The spiritual path is extremely well documented and understood, if you but do the research. Human beings have been doing this for over 4000 years.

[Markus]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The reality is you need it.

Enlightenment without personal development work produces enlightened assholes and rubes.

Personal development without enlightenment produces polished egos who can never find fulfillment no matter what they achieve. This would be like the Tony Robbins effect (sorry, Tony, my projection )

After enlightenment you still need to master the following things:

• Relationships
• Socializing
• Science
• Business/career
• Family
• Health
• Bad habits & addictions
• Bad cultural conditioning like sexism or racism
• Embodiment of unconditional love
• Old childhood traumas
• Ethical behavior

But Leo...what if one is content with being an enlightened asshole? Why would they then give a shit? Maybe an enlightened person would have the preference of living in a 'better' world, treating others well, etc. But what if they don't? As long as they're not acting egotistically and thus causing themselves suffering, there seems to be no motive other than preference.

This reminds me of a part in a McKenna book where someone asks him for help with a suicidal loved one, and he tells him to buy her a suicide handbook or something...Lol  

[Leo Gura]

@Markus You've yet to experience infinite divine love.

So much love you want to cry for the entire universe.

So much love you would give your life for it without question.

The ego cannot fathom such things.

[Leo Gura]

Of course, if you want to be an asshole, you're welcome to it.

Nothing on this path is a SHOULD. It's all optional.

Feel free to go murder puppies as a hobby if that floats your boat.

[Markus]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Markus You've yet to experience infinite divine love.

So much love you want to cry for the entire universe.

So much love you would give your life for it without question.

The ego cannot fathom such things.

It's true I can't fathom it. I have had a few experiences where hatred of anyone or anything no longer made sense, and these have motivated me to serve, so I can logically see why an enlightened person would want to not be an asshole.

I'm just trying to connect the dots of the big picture. I have the assumption infinite divine love is kind of a natural byproduct of enlightenment, at least one deep enough. In that case, why are there enlightened assholes other than those who've had an 'incomplete' enlightenment? If it's not a natural byproduct of enlightenment, what drives one to seek it out?

[cetus]

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Markus You've yet to experience infinite divine love.

So much love you want to cry for the entire universe.

So much love you would give your life for it without question.

The ego cannot fathom such things.

@Leo GuraCan suffering be just as divine as love can be?  Infinite divine suffering  (when all ego is removed from it)

[Bob84]

@MochaSlap Enlightenment in a sense is freedom from ego. Personal development in a sense is making your ego less screwed up. You should see how that means that there are relevant to each other while at the same time not

@cetus56 This so called love is a interpretation done with the ego. Same goes for suffering. When all ego is removed they become optional in a sense. Both are just a projection, however, since we live in set projection, we might as well enjoy it. Choosing to suffer at that point is for lack of a better word "stupid".

[Joel3102]

I think I recall Shinzen Young (I assume a VERY enlightened man) saying that Enlightnenment is nowhere near the end of the path. He said he personally still sought professional therapy for behavioural issues after awakening. 

[cetus]

1 hour ago, Bob84 said:

. Choosing to suffer at that point is for lack of a better word "stupid".

@Bob84  I'm talking more about feeling the suffering of humanity. Maybe that is "stupid". But the phrase, "Choosing to suffer" is egotistical because that's making a  conscious choice to suffer. That makes no sense at all. But don't you ever watch the news and you can really feel the suffering going on? For instance that little boy in Syria sitting in the ambulance covered with blood and so in despair.  I shoudn't be one his suffering? 

Edited November 2, 2016 by cetus56

[Key Elements]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You've yet to experience infinite divine love.

Now, you realized that this count a lot as well as infinite.

It's so interesting transforming back to our ego and still living with it - the paradox. Our journey continues in this life. To make life more meaningful, try showing this divine love to the world. Showing = actions speak louder than words. After all, it's all you. How are you going to communicate/show this? This will be interesting - not so easy, is it?

[Markus]

1 hour ago, Joel3102 said:

I think I recall Shinzen Young (I assume a VERY enlightened man) saying that Enlightnenment is nowhere near the end of the path. He said he personally still sought professional therapy for behavioural issues after awakening. 

He did say that. And not just after awakening, which he got in four years of practice, but after decades. The realization of no-self, or classical enlightenment, should be seen as just the beginning if one takes this path seriously. Something being a behavioural issue is of course just an idea. There's no such things as one perfect way of behaving so you could always find something to work on changing.

[Bob84]

41 minutes ago, cetus56 said:

@Bob84  I'm talking more about feeling the suffering of humanity. Maybe that is "stupid". But the phrase, "Choosing to suffer" is egotistical because that's making a  conscious choice to suffer. That makes no sense at all. But don't you ever watch the news and you can really feel the suffering going on? For instance that little boy in Syria sitting in the ambulance covered with blood and so in despair.  I shoudn't be one his suffering? 

How do i say this. Suffering in above example is just a projection. When you become completely aware of your projections (no ego, enlightenment, what ever you want to call it). You literally have to option to not pay any mind to set projections. At which point, suffering in this case becomes a conscious choice.
I know this is hard to swallow since most people have the belief that when they don't suffer because of this they are a bad person.

[cetus]

2 minutes ago, Bob84 said:

How do i say this. Suffering in above example is just a projection. When you become completely aware of your projections (no ego, enlightenment, what ever you want to call it). You literally have to option to not pay any mind to set projections. At which point, suffering in this case becomes a conscious choice.
I know this is hard to swallow since most people have the belief that when they don't suffer because of this they are a bad person.

I see what your saying. But at the same time if you have an unbounded capacity to feel the suffering of others, I don't see the need to suppress it either.

On the last line of your statement, your coming from the point of a person working through their ego. I choose to love. I choose to suffer. If I don't suffer I'm a bad person, If I don't love I'm a bad person. Lets transcend that for a moment.

I see it like this, what I am is infinite. Everything I experience, every emotion I feel, returns and dissolves into that infinite capacity. It absorbs it like a sponge so that it may experience itself through us. EVERYTHING!

 

[Bob84]

Sure there's no need to suppress it, additionally suppressing is actually paying extra attention to set thoughts.

Of course i use my ego, even worse i am projecting on you . Kind of hard to communicate without.

I don't
 

[Nexeternity]

oops wrong thread!

Edited November 2, 2016 by Nexeternity