Personal Development With Enlightenment

[Leo Gura]

@cetus56 Suffering is an illusion. YOU construct it! Actively construct it in EVERY case! This requires high levels of development and consciousness to see.

What you're talking about isn't suffering but compassion.

A properly enlightened person will have lots of capacity for compassion for the suffering of the ignorant. This is very different than suffering alongside them, which is not necessary.

 

 

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, Markus said:

I'm just trying to connect the dots of the big picture. I have the assumption infinite divine love is kind of a natural byproduct of enlightenment, at least one deep enough. In that case, why are there enlightened assholes other than those who've had an 'incomplete' enlightenment? If it's not a natural byproduct of enlightenment, what drives one to seek it out?

Yes, it tends to be byproduct, but the brain/mind is strong. It is full of old conditioning that takes decades of work to unwire.

Firstly, most people's enlightenments are far from complete from what I understand. True masters are very rare, and if you ever meet one face to face, you will know their mastery, it's simply awesome to behold. That level you will never reach with just one or two enlightenment experiences. That takes decades of work.

But even if one is highly enlightened, one could STILL hold all sorts of dogmas, psychological hang-ups, and cultural biases.

Shinzen told me that his teacher in Japan was an enlightened "asshole". The Zen traditions seem to like the asshole aesthetic. Seems to be a cultural thing. He told a story of where one of the monks punched him in the nose in the monastry while they were training because it was cold in the zendo and Shinzen had the sniffles while they were all meditating together. The next day he got punched in the nose for making too much noise!

So yeah... you could turn into that guy if you're not careful, lol.

[Leo Gura]

Well, you must not be doing your research too well, cause most of the deeply enlightened masters I've talked to or read clearly talk about about cultivation of the psyche far beyond enlightenment experiences. They don't call it "personal development" of course. That's a modern Western self-help phrase that they don't often use.

Every major spiritual tradition, from Yoga, to Buddhism, to Zen, to Christianity, to Islam, all contain many aspects of personal cultivation. They are NOT direct paths to enlightenment. They encourage cultivation of compassion, right action, right diet, right speech, humility, right relationships, etc.

In Zen they have a concept called "the Zen devil". Which is a person who's had a few enlightenment experiences and thinks he's arrived, when in fact he's just a little devil, using enlightenment egoically and lacks maturity.

And just from a physiological perspective, there's no way in hell that having 1 enlightenment experience will rewire your entire brain to act masterfully. That takes decades of work.

Like I said, if you want to be a Zen devil, no one is stopping you. When I speak about these things I am always assuming your goal is reaching your maximum human potential. If you don't care about that, then that's your prerogative. And in that case, you're welcome to sit on the couch all day and eat Doritos and watch football.

[Leo Gura]

That's not true.

Of course Buddhism is not about mastering business or career or family. But it does address many of the other points on the list. And also, Buddhism is mostly designed for hardcore monks, who have no business, career, or family. If you want to remain part of society and live a "normal" house-holder lifestyle, you will have to master many other things.

To fully cut the roots of Samsara, you're gonna have to do personal development beyond enlightenment.

How can you cut the roots of Samsara, for example, when you aren't even conscious yet of what REAL relationship is, or what REAL communication is? Most of your emotional baggage, neurotic ticks, and bad habits will still be there after enlightenment.

COMPLETE ENLIGHTENMENT is virtually unheard of.

I've seen people who've had 1 or 2 enlightenment experiences. They're basically as clueless and unmasterful as the average person. They have a TON of emotional shit and their lives are unrefined. WAY shy of the end goal.

[The]

^ Zen Devil rotten asshole here ? lol

Must be nice to have deeply enlightened masters to talk to.. 

You can call it whatever you like nothing is sacred to him..

Who says Donald Trump isn't enlightened? a Judgemental wanna be that thinks they're up hi while everyone else is down low.. 

Edited November 2, 2016 by Vegeta

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Wormon Blatburm said:

@Leo Gura I think what he is saying is that you don't have to do self actualization work to be productive in life. Self actualization is just one path out of many paths in life. 

Just because someone doesn't follow actualized.or doesn't mean they will eat chips all day, they can follow other people and read other books 

Of course, I'm not talking about Actualized.org. You can follow whoever you want.

But if your goal is maximum human potential, you will NEVER get there without Enlightenment + Personal Development.

Personal Development is being defined broadly here. I don't have a monopoly on personal development.

And if your goal is to merely be productive, you can do that without enlightenment or personal development. Just look at Donald Trump. And that's basically who you'll become, a Donald Trump character.

[Cossta]

10 hours ago, Prabhaker said:

There are mystics who are enlightened but illiterate , they know nothing about worldly affairs, never become famous and teach others. 

Why you need to become famous ?

[Vercingetorix]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

COMPLETE ENLIGHTENMENT is virtually unheard of.

Eckhart tolle enlightenment experience for example  would classify as "complete enlightenment" in your book?

[Huz]

44 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And just from a physiological perspective, there's no way in hell that having 1 enlightenment experience will rewire your entire brain to act masterfully. That takes decades of work.

 

Is that why you are experimenting with your theory that if you do Meo over a certain amount of times you can get deeper into this practice?

Edited November 2, 2016 by Huz

[The]

9 minutes ago, Wormon Blatburm said:

But you agree that you can be enlightened and be a lazy slug who eats McDonald's every day and doesn't work? If so then the personal development is required, just so that doesn't happen.

I liked your name the other day why did you go back to the original? 

Maybe there really is something special in the Big Mac sauce? Maybe you can plug it? And an enlightened lazy slug that didn't practice any methods must have been through something I'd think to get there. maybe lots of salt

Edited November 2, 2016 by Vegeta

[The]

*"personal preference"

Conflicts occur on/at the smallest levels.. As long as there's more than one there will always be differences

Edited November 2, 2016 by Vegeta

[aurum]

For whatever it's worth, I've had a pretty serious enlightenment "experience" and will confirm what @Leo Gurais saying. I suppose for some people their first enlightenment experience could be incredibly deep enough to eventually alter them in ways we would consider beneficial to "personal development". But this seems very rare and not likely for most people. Ralston, Adyashanti and Ken Wilber have all written about this in depth.

For me, while I do believe my experience has been beneficial in terms of personal development, it's certainly not over for me. Still many habits remain that I would ideally like to kick.

Of course, maybe if I ever achieved full enlightenment I would drop all desires for personal development. But I really can't say. Such a perspective is way too radical for me to grasp at my current level. All I know is that right now I'm just as motivated to do personal development as really ever before.

There is no reason that becoming directly conscious of Truth would suddenly mean you knew how to, for instance, run a business. These things are totally independent of each other. I believe a good life comes from mastering both your inner purpose (enlightenment) AND your outer purpose (world of form). This is the Middle Way. The alpha and the omega, everything and nothing, in this world but not of it.

[cetus]

@Vegeta Your profile picture could cause seizures in people with Epilepsy. Would you be willing to remove it for another choice? Thanks!

Edited November 2, 2016 by cetus56

[The]

9 minutes ago, Wormon Blatburm said:

There will be conflicts as long as people are unconcious and making stupid unconcious choices

I haven't seen that movie yet..

It will be called "Wishful Thinking" or "In Your Dreams" and come on dude quit preaching to the choir.. 

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by Vegeta

[The]

@cetus56 I changed my name for Wormon not that it changes anything and I will change my picture for you, as soon as I can find one that I like to replace it.. Are there any other requests for me? 

Edited November 2, 2016 by Vegeta

[cetus]

2 minutes ago, Vegeta said:

I will change my picture for you

@Vegeta Me? It's not about me.

[The]

@cetus56 whatever dude.. It's for the "epileptic" gotcha ?

 

[cetus]

@Vegeta  Thanks man for changing that. The other one was cool but it mightn't fuck up somebody else's shit.

[Prabhaker]

2 hours ago, Cossta said:

Why you need to become famous ?

I was talking about enlightened masters. Unless a spiritual teacher becomes famous, how will his message spread ? 

Edited November 2, 2016 by Prabhaker

[Self-Mastery]

53 minutes ago, aurum said:

For whatever it's worth, I've had a pretty serious enlightenment "experience" and will confirm what @Leo Gurais saying. I suppose for some people their first enlightenment experience could be incredibly deep enough to eventually alter them in ways we would consider beneficial to "personal development". But this seems very rare and not likely for most people. Ralston, Adyashanti and Ken Wilber have all written about this in depth.

For me, while I do believe my experience has been beneficial in terms of personal development, it's certainly not over for me. Still many habits remain that I would ideally like to kick.

Of course, maybe if I ever achieved full enlightenment I would drop all desires for personal development. But I really can't say. Such a perspective is way too radical for me to grasp at my current level. All I know is that right now I'm just as motivated to do personal development as really ever before.

There is no reason that becoming directly conscious of Truth would suddenly mean you knew how to, for instance, run a business. These things are totally independent of each other. I believe a good life comes from mastering both your inner purpose (enlightenment) AND your outer purpose (world of form). This is the Middle Way. The alpha and the omega, everything and nothing, in this world but not of it.

@aurum So, You have to work on personal development before, during, and after enlightenment in Ralston, Adyashanti and Ken Wilber's opinion. Am I right?

By the way, which of Ken Wilber's books do you recommend to read? I want to know more about the connection between PD and and enlightenment.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Self-Mastery