Biden: "Israel has a right to defend itself"

[Eren Eeager]

40 minutes ago, fopylo said:

Anyway, I feel I should stop. I don't want to let my biases take over. I'm from Israel and you are from Jordan so it's easier to take sides.

Peace, bro.

I wish someday both just live peacefully on the same land and accept each other.

[fopylo]

@Eren Eeager Same man. Sorry for being defensive. Usually I never talk about politics because I don't understand them, but this is happening right now and I'm experiencing it + it's on Actualized.org (my most visited website as of recently).

But yeah, I hope higher consciousness will prevail the politicians and citizens

[Shadowraix]

I'm not really familiar with this conflict but I was informed a little bit (so I don't concretely think any of this true) by someone a lot of Palestinian's attacks were often in retaliation and people often justify that as to not be mad at Israel.

Correct or nuance this whoever knows more about the topic.

But even in defensive retaliation there could be a discussion on if it was done in a reasonable manner.

I also was told Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip as a symbol of peace but the Palestinians took that strip and turned it into a zone to attack Israel.

I'm not very informed on the topic so throwing this out there if anybody feels able to confirm or correct. 

[Dryas]

History: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/nbg7q3/can_someone_explain_the_history_of_the/gy2gyln?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

[Shadowraix]

37 minutes ago, flex said:

@Shadowraix Hamas wants al the land its on video. Just like Arafat. It asks to moslims in Isreal to cut jews heads of. They don't want discussion or they want a fake discussion.   This is al done before. 

An eyeopener would be for you to watch Arafats speach when a peace agreement is made. All full of nice idealistic peaceful talk. It was al fake! Hamas is the same.

Hey ty for that I'll take a look when I can. If there's any other resources I can become more educated on the topic I would greatly appreciate it (I could just google it but recommendations beforehand so i can reduce stumbling on a biased source)

Edited May 15, 2021 by Shadowraix

[Dryas]

@flex Hm, I don’t think the Reddit post had any mention of this. Could you cite a source? A Wikipedia link would do.

[Dryas]

@flex I’d view this with skepticism. 

[Dryas]

@flex Well It’s “r/askhistorians” So I think I’ll trust them more. 

[snowyowl]

@greatfruit I'm learning about the history. Are you saying the Palestinian politicians aren't willing to compromise and they want the whole area of Israel + Palestine as a Palestinian state, and just get rid of Israel altogether? 

[Hatfort]

The problem of what Biden says is quite obvious, the other side of the coin. Palestine has the right to defend itself too. This mentality is harmful and we gotta start getting over it. We are, but Biden is old school, his position is not a surpisse. Now, I'm not gonna pretend the two sides are equally at fault, I don't believe that for a second. What the Netanyahu administration is doing is terrorism. Right now it seems that they've been escalating the conflict because it benefits them in the new government negotiations. Sad but true. People and children are dying for this shit.

They just bombed a media building. That's peace and free speech, right?

Yang fucked it up, that was funny. He is in a bad spot because he has had quite a progressive support history and they are not going to take that from him if he wants to lead them. Liberals won't trust him either though.

[Fadl]

On 13/5/2021 at 1:10 PM, Hulia said:

Wasn´t it Hamas who started firing rockets? What would be the right response to that?

Yeah right, Hamas started firing rockets with no reason beacuse that what Arabs do, firing rockets with no reason, what you can do about it?

Just call them terrorist and feel good about it. 

 

[Hulia]

15 hours ago, Fadl said:

Yeah right, Hamas started firing rockets with no reason beacuse that what Arabs do, firing rockets with no reason, what you can do about it?

Just call them terrorist and feel good about it. 

 

I understand your frustration about having your land taken away from you. But launching rockets at the living districts with the intention of killing civilians IS a terrorism. No matter what is the reason behind.

What do you want -  to get your land back or to kill as many jews as possible? If it is the 1st, you should have noticed by now that the strategy of Hamas is extremly inefficient. 

I am sure if not for Hamas, Palestina would have much more international support and maybe even inside of Israel. Maybe the Israeliesm wouldn´t have elected the right wing politicians.

[DocWatts]

Even calling this a Conflict seems somewhat misleading, when you considering the Power Imbalance between the two sides.

As if there's any ambiguity over what the outcome will be when a stateless people happens to be in the way of an Imperialist State.

If International Pressure was justified in pressuring South Africa to end Apartheid, it's equally justified in pushing back against the Apartheid that's the Israeli State is enabling.

[Hulia]

10 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Even calling this a Conflict seems somewhat misleading, when you considering the Power Imbalance between the two sides.

As if there's any ambiguity over what the outcome will be when a stateless people happens to be in the way of an Imperialist State.

If International Pressure was justified in pressuring South Africa to end Apartheid, it's equally justified in pushing back against the Apartheid that's the Israeli State is enabling.

This is what I mean, how little Hamas cares about peoples´life. Why does Hamas launch rockets at Israel, the outcome is always the same: their people suffering much more than Israelis. This is the difference between civilisation (on the right) and barabarism (on the left) - the importance of human life. 

It´s a pity, the palestinians don´t see how harmfull for them Hamas is. They are blinded by hatred which is understandable when we see these numbers. If you ask me, the only mission of Hamas is to fuel the hatred. Or did their attacks ever bring some advantage for Palestina?

[DocWatts]

5 minutes ago, Hulia said:

This is what I mean, how little Hamas cares about peoples´life. Why does Hamas launch rockets at Israel, the outcome is always the same: their people suffering much more than Israelis. This is the difference between civilisation (on the right) and barabarism (on the left) - the importance of human life. 

It´s a pity, the palestinians don´t see how harmfull for them Hamas is. They are blinded by hatred which is understandable when we see these numbers. If you ask me, the only mission of Hamas is to fuel the hatred. Or did their attacks ever bring some advantage for Palestina?

While I don't disagree with this overall assessment, that doesn't change the fact that the impetus is on Israel - the more powerful actor - to renounce its Manifest Destiny ambitions, and commit to working towards a two state solution.

The impetus can not be placed on the people who have been put in an impossible situation, either resist and suffer massive and disproportionate retaliation, or submit and resign themselves to slowly having what's left of thier home taken from then.

[Fadl]

4 hours ago, Hulia said:

But launching rockets at the living districts with the intention of killing civilians IS a terrorism.

If somebody is launching at you you must launch back, especially with these kind of people, shameless and evil.

 And liars.

Forget about your zen teaching and understand what is going on.

[blackchair]

I'll get my world peace one way or another ?

Edited May 16, 2021 by blackchair

[Nivsch]

On 13.5.2021 at 2:02 PM, bejapuskas said:

@Nivsch  It is very interesting to have somebody from Israel on this thread, multi-culturalism and expression of various opinions should be more encouraged on this forum. Could you explain more about the left wing in Israel?

Its difficult to say how much left there is becaue there is a center-left sector that thinks very similar and the "left" is a word people in israel afraid to identify with because of the Netanyahu toxic propaganda during the years.

So its better to start from the right lol ?

The Right wing, or conservatives, within Israel is like 55% I think. 

Within the Right there are:

Far right which wants to settle in the whole land without any compromises.

Moderate Right ("Bibizm") who are not so into the settlement (a little) but still conservatives and traditional.

Soft-Right, at least this is how we call it here, which is Right in the state and lands issues but Liberal and much more open to diversities in people lifestyle. Close to the center-left sector. These are the people I saw that moved to the opposite sector to co-operate with during the last years so its not just a name its practically important.

The Center-Left sector, or Liberals, is like 25%, but together with the soft right is just a little less from the Right wing sector.

Within the Center-Left sector there are:

Center-left (surprisingly) which is exactly like Liberals in US I think and not far at all from western europe values. very pro gays, pro minorities... everything you want.

Left who wants to get back to 67' with some changes.

And there are Arab parties represent 20% of the population who I am much less know about their values but its kind of a mix.

Means - The right wing sector is a little bigger but thats enough for him to win election time after time especially with Netanyahu who is very charismatic and plays people minds. But these days more people in the Right stand against Netanyahu because of its extreme low values during the last years so there is a hope.

And now we have that military operation which I think the main responsible for the acceleration process in Jerusalem which lead to the current war is Netanyahu after the Center-left almost won him (until the current war).

Of course the world see mainly the negative things, overlook the complexity, and cherry pick the Right and the Far Right (the "aphartide" is maybe-maybe only the far right which is just 15%) and decides that this is "Israel". 

No this is not.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Nivsch

[ArcticGong]

As an outsider looking in into the Middle East, I don't think any country would be successful under that environment by being nice. All the genocidal shit that goes on there, and all sides try to convince that the other side is "evil". Think about it, since the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire all the genocides, coercion, slavery and war. Yes the Middle East was the last place to reluctantly ended slavery, by pressure from the west. I personally feel that the humanitarian situation in Yemen is more urgent and extreme, but Isreal-Palestine just stirs up more emotions and feeling by most parties around the world because of Israel's controversial presence in the Middle East. 

[Tetcher]

Good documentary about apartheid in Israel :