Vaush's Discussion with Epoch Philosophy on the Merits of Debate Culture

[DocWatts]

Feel like I'm beginning to sound like a broken record when I lead off with : another excellent discussion from Vaush, but alas...

Wasn't familiar with Epoch Philosophy before seeing this, but it was interesting hearing Vaush's reactions to someone critiquing the Structure (rather than the Content) of his work.

I've never thought that Debates were a very productive means of Political Discourse, and that Vaush's Debate Lord videos have been by far the least engaging content on his Channel.

As a side note, I'm tempted to start co-opting the term 'non ideological Left' as not a terrible way to surmise my worldview in a few words...

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by DocWatts

[Dryas]

I don’t understand why Vaush would still stream tbh. What’s the point of online politics? Go outside, do personal development, find a real career and life purpose (could even be related to politics, right???), contemplate reality etc. Online politics is cancerous and becomes a trap.

[RendHeaven]

3 minutes ago, Dryas said:

find a real career and life purpose

What does 'real' mean to you?

[DocWatts]

@Dryas

While I don't see debates as very productive, I would argue that there's value in, well let's just call it Dialogue for lack of a better term, where the goal is less about confrontation and more exploring an idea with someone with the aim of mutual understanding of perspectives.

I can't speak to the rest of the world, but I've seen this used far more successfully in getting someone to consider and take seriously other perspectives than a debate ever could.

Edited May 11, 2021 by DocWatts

[Dryas]

@RendHeaven I’m not exactly sure but streaming and debating ain’t it

@DocWatts Sure, maybe Vaush could do that in the future. Problem is he demonizes the right so much that I don’t know if it would possible for him to genuinely explore it

[Leo Gura]

I'd say the biggest value of debates is that they at least expose you to different worldviews, as opposed to just being in an echo-chamber. It can be revealing, for example, to see how a Nazi or a libertarian thinks. Seeing his thought process is valuable and useful as you learn epistemology. You can catch the epistemic mistakes and learn from them.

Debates have to be watched from a stage Yellow, meta perspective. Most people fall into the trap of watching debates from a Tier 1 perspective of picking a side.

If you're going to watch a debate, you should approach it like a scientist observes chimps in the wild. Don't become the chimp.

[John Iverson]

58 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I'd say the biggest value of debates is that they at least expose you to different worldviews, as opposed to just being in an echo-chamber. It can be revealing, for example, to see how a Nazi or a libertarian thinks. Seeing his thought process is valuable and useful as you learn epistemology. You can catch the epistemic mistakes and learn from them.

Debates have to be watched from a stage Yellow, meta perspective. Most people fall into the trap of watching debates from a Tier 1 perspective of picking a side.

If you're going to watch a debate, you should approach it like a scientist observes chimps in the wild. Don't become the chimp.

Can you give me videos of debates in yellow stage? Is there any like that?

[DocWatts]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I'd say the biggest value of debates is that they at least expose you to different worldviews, as opposed to just being in an echo-chamber. It can be revealing, for example, to see how a Nazi or a libertarian thinks. Seeing his thought process is valuable and useful as you learn epistemology. You can catch the epistemic mistakes and learn from them.

Debates have to be watched from a stage Yellow, meta perspective. Most people fall into the trap of watching debates from a Tier 1 perspective of picking a side.

If you're going to watch a debate, you should approach it like a scientist observes chimps in the wild. Don't become the chimp.

I get that it may be at least some exposure to outside views for people sealed tight into an echo chamber, but it seems pretty sub-optimal for delving in to the thought process of other worldviews, does it not?

Because the structure of a debate is more akin to something like a Game, people are naturally going to be more defensive and guarded in that situation. Though learning what sorts of Rhetorical tricks different ideologies tend to employ can be useful, I'll grant you.

I'd argue something like Borat is far more illuminating than listening to two talking heads in a debate style format, since in the former the persons being spoken to don't have thier defense mechanisms in overdrive, and are more willing to be honest about thier motivations and feelings as a result.

Edited May 12, 2021 by DocWatts

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, John Iverson said:

Can you give me videos of debates in yellow stage? Is there any like that?

I wasn't talking about Yellow debates, I was talking about looking at debates from a Yellow stage yourself. If YOU don't bring the Yellow to the debate, you won't find it there.

Debates are not a Yellow activity. Yellow people got better things to do than debate.

[mikelyons]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Debates are not a Yellow activity. Yellow people got better things to do than debate.

BOOM BOOM BOOM. 

Does this mean that, if you have an overwhelming urge to debate, you're not yet at stage yellow (in a significant capacity?)

[Leo Gura]

@mikelyons You can have the urge, but not act on it. I often get an urge, but then hold myself back. It can be very tempting to intellectually rip someone apart. But if you're conscious and introspect for a second, you'll recognize it as ego.

Which is why I've adopted a general policy of not debating anyone. I don't want to be lured into such egoic games. If you refuse to debate, you automatically win.

[John Iverson]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Debates are not a Yellow activity. Yellow people got better things to do than debate.

I am curious of what are the activities of yellow

[Max_V]

@John Iverson Visiting the stage yellow thread on the forum, watching Leo's videos on yellow, and reading a spiral dynamics book will get you a good idea I think!

[WaveInTheOcean]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@mikelyons . If you refuse to debate, you automatically win.

Ah, sophisticated survival

[NOTintoxicated]

22 hours ago, Dryas said:

I don’t understand why Vaush would still stream tbh. What’s the point of online politics? Go outside, do personal development, find a real career and life purpose (could even be related to politics, right???), contemplate reality etc. Online politics is cancerous and becomes a trap.

Wow a true genius speaks.

Is an actual response to this even warranted?