Aren't psychedelics the ultimate tease?

[mandyjw]

An awakening experience is causeless, so no matter what cause you attribute it to, it's an experience that is actually an experience of lack. Lack of believed thoughts that something is wrong, lack of thoughts that SAY something is lacking, someone is lacking, that you already know what's going on. So we say it's an experience of love or wonder or however we describe it. 

It should be seen as an experience that raises your standards, now you KNOW/FEEL what is possible when we drop the thoughts that say otherwise. The way is to sink into feeling, dropping thoughts. 

It's a very old "trick" to attribute that happiness/lack of anything wrong TO a person, place, substance or particular experience in the past. This is what you've been doing your entire life, Santa Claus brought me what I asked for and I was happy for a few hours. Santa Claus doesn't exist, the toy didn't make you happy, but those circumstances and beliefs allowed you to experience a window of time where no thoughts arose that fueled an underlying feeling that something was missing. 11 year old you thought, "Having a nerf gun would be great, I wish I had a new nerf gun, there's nothing good on TV right now, my brother ate all the oreos, that asshole!" Nothing has changed since. Everything has changed.  

It's Christmas everyday. Merry Christmas! Happy Birthday! Raise your standards for how you feel! Don't mistake the thought "I should feel better" for feeling itself. That thought is just as useless as a thought equating happiness with oreos or the nerf gun. 

Also note "feel better" has a double meaning. It means you're more aware, you heighten your senses, see with more clarity, AND AND AND you FEEL love. 

Maaagic. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by mandyjw

[freejoy]

David Hawkins says, "many meditators few enlightened"

The spiritual "path" is non-linear. One might be seeking for a long time then suddenly get revelations all at once. Not like learning math linearly.

It seems the controlling factor is probably intention.

I've had glimpses into some aspects of enlightenment without meditation or psychedelics. 

I've been wrong so many times in my spiritual path that I now always question my beliefs. It's been a long road! : )

Edited May 10, 2021 by freejoy

[TheDao]

50 minutes ago, Nahm said:

People I have sessions with awaken. This is my normal day to day. The vast majority have never meditated or taken a psychedelic. None of this is due to me, nor can be credited to me in any way. I am no more responsible for their awakening than I am their previous suffering. What do you make of this? 

@NahmPeople who find you probably have a certain background? Inquired a lot into nonduality? 

Edited May 10, 2021 by TheDao

[Nahm]

@TheDao

Sometimes, much more rare though. 

[TheDao]

22 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Sometimes, much more rare though. 

@Nahm How come I don't get it with watching your youtube video? Why are personal sessions necessary?

[vladorion]

If an experience doesn't cause a shift in identity that lasts, it's not really an awakening, no matter how profound it seems.

[Javfly33]

13 minutes ago, vladorion said:

If an experience doesn't cause a shift in identity that lasts, it's not really an awakening, no matter how profound it seems.

What if the experience just reveals that the shift in identity was already the case?

 

[vladorion]

9 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

What if the experience just reveals that the shift in identity was already the case?

 

Doesn't really matter how you describe it.

[TheDao]

I think Im screwed. I will have to take that meo. But I know I am very attached to normal ordinary life, I am not so much a daredevil. I probable will try to resist bigtimes. But if I dont do it, it looks like I am waisting my time.

[Adamq8]

@TheDao Beginners doubt ? i knew how that was too.

But listen my honest opinion is this : dont over complicate stuff.

Go with your direct experience you have of life, and then try out a psychedelic after a while and see what the fuss is about.

And start too see that you view non duality and psychedelics from a different paradigm atm and much wont make sense from that paradigm, but when you can deconstruct your mind of assumptions and inquire into the nature of experience and reality, things start to look alot more different then the way materialism says it is.

Secondly i got some questions you could contemplate if you would want too ?

How come science can't answer what conciousness is? Or how neurons in the brain produces the taste of chocolate?

Secondly contemplate where did the big bang come from?

How come people have the most intense experiences of their life EVER when they have died and the brain did not function?

Why is it even possible to experience god conciousness, infinity, insights into the nature of reality, collapse subject/object into one unified whole?

Why is it that since recorded history mystics and philosophers has said the same thing about this stuff? In just different words and languages?

Why do science dismiss conciousness, out of body experiences, dreams, paranormal phenomena, psychedelic trips, NDE's and much more?

Be weary tho of the answers and responds your mind comes up with when inquirying into these questions, but also try to notice that it is you who are aware of the thoughts, thats awareness, investigate that, investigate awareness.

 

[Consilience]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Psychedelics will certainly make meditation practice seem futile.

It did the opposite for me. My meditation practice was invigorated and propelled by my aggressive psychedelic useage. Lately I've been tripping significantly less and having an enormous growth with manual practice. 

[Forestluv]

11 hours ago, 4201 said:

I really love psychedelics and everytime I take them it's just amazing. But the doubts I have about my ability to wake up sober do not go away with psychedelics.

I still feel shit for most of the time because of thought identification and no amount of psychedelics actually raise my ability to not identify with thought, it just temporarilly makes it easy.

It sounds like you are creating two categories: psychedelic-induced amazingness and suck-ass sober thought identification. It reminds me of my early days with psychedelics in which I was transported into genius-level, expansive domains. Then I would return back to "me", which was quite disappointing. There was desire to return to that transcendent place. It was almost like I had super powers there. 

It is great news is that you found a tool that can bring you to higher consciousness levels. You get to see and experience higher aspects of yourself. That is an immense gift that few people in the world receive. Most people spend their life contracted within a personality construct. And many people do not resonate with psychedelics. I know many people that tried psychedelics and it was like a wild dream, or they got nothing out of it. After trip-sitting a friend, she said to me "I don't get it. What was supposed to happen?". . . In contrast, you've *gotten* something. You now have a search image for a domain of expansion and way of relating to the world.

At the human level, we can consider the work and practice needed to move toward transcendence. For example, a few years ago several of my trips took me into a space of immense creativity and awareness of inter-connectedness within systems. It was genuis-level beyond anything I could imagine in a sober state. When I returned there was a sense of disappointment and frustration that I couldn't express it or access it sober. I was back to my normal, logical contracted self. I'd walk in the forest and it would be boring. My mind was in immersed in simple constructs and thought identification. Yet the good news was that I was now aware of much higher modes of creativity and intelligence. Importantly, I realized it wasn't just the psychedelics - the psychedelics revealed higher potential within this being called "me". 

Rather than all-or-nothing thinking, I've found it helpful to look at it as a continuum. Let's say that psychedelics rocketed me from a genuis-level of 3 to a genius level of 3,000. That is a 1,000 fold increase. Yet it's partially incorrect to think "I'll never reach a genius level of 3,000 sober. While sober, I'm stuck at a level 3, which sucks now that I've seen 3,000". It may be true that psychedelics are needed to reach and sustain level 3,000 - yet it's false that I'm stuck at level 3. This is a limiting trap of the mind. Human potential is far beyond what the sober mind imagines. With work and practice, I may be able to reach a level of 300. That is a 100X increase. A 100X increase is massive! 

What work and practices can we do to progress? It's different for different people. For me, psychedelics revealed certain "its", although I couldn't access it while sober, I could see glimpses in others. For example, I would go into imaginative spaces I didn't have any words for. I couldn't access it while sober, yet I saw glimpses of it in others. They called it things like "systemic thinking". Some people were much better than I was. If I was a 3, they were at 30. I could now recognize it in others. So I started watching such people and having conversations with them. They pulled me up. Almost like learning Spanish - being with a fluent Spanish speaker can pull one up. . . Yet I still couldn't do it on my own, which was disappointing and frustrating. 

I also found it helpful to set intentions. I would start off walks in the forest with an intention: "I intend to relax my mind and enter creative flowing mindspaces free of thought / personal identification". And I would start to get glimpses. I would see a field of wild flowers and realize it looks like a painting. Then it was like the most amazing 3 dimensional painting I've ever seen. I realized an artist could never capture all the detail and dimensions of it. Then I realized, the love that motivates an artist to try and re-create it - and the creativity that goes into re-contextualizing it. Not only did I intellectually see it, I also emotionally felt it. . . Then I realized there was higher order integration appearing right now, as if I was on a moderate dose of psychedelics. I was now able to recognize it and with practice, my mind got better and better at it. 

When using psychedelics, I've also found it helpful to use low doses. That can give a boost to become a co-creator. As well, breathwork can allow the mind-body to enter a trans-personal space similar to a moderate dose of psychedelics. Yet it is much easier to be a co-creator and integrate. 

As well, I've found it helpful to set an intention going into a trip. I've had trips in which my intention and question was "How do I do it sober? How can I turn off attachment/identification to thoughts. Please show me how". And more is revealed. 

And from a neuroscience perspective, there is immense potential to rewire the brain through neuronal plasticity. Yet this takes work. If a mind is has neuronal circuts and patterns that have been re-enforced over and over again for years, it can take some work to rewire that. Imagine how much it would take for you to forget English and stop perceiving the world through English? That would take enormous rewiring. Now imagine, you learn Spanish fluently and can spend days speaking Spanish with very few English words appearing. That also takes work and practice to rewire, yet is definitely possible. Nearly every human mind has the potential to become fluent in another language. And that "language" can be all sorts of transpersonal conscious states. 

 

[4201]

5 hours ago, Forestluv said:

As well, I've found it helpful to set an intention going into a trip. I've had trips in which my intention and question was "How do I do it sober? How can I turn off attachment/identification to thoughts. Please show me how". And more is revealed. 

I agree with everything you said, and this point is effectively what I want to do. But at the same time, I don't want to wait for a week for my psychedelic tolerance to come off. Psychedelics give me access to clarity once in a while but in actuality, I am clarity all the time. In theory I don't even need to take a psychedelic next weekend to figure out that, I could have it now.

[4201]

9 hours ago, mandyjw said:

An awakening experience is causeless, so no matter what cause you attribute it to, it's an experience that is actually an experience of lack. Lack of believed thoughts that something is wrong, lack of thoughts that SAY something is lacking, someone is lacking, that you already know what's going on. So we say it's an experience of love or wonder or however we describe it. 

It should be seen as an experience that raises your standards, now you KNOW/FEEL what is possible when we drop the thoughts that say otherwise. The way is to sink into feeling, dropping thoughts. 

It's a very old "trick" to attribute that happiness/lack of anything wrong TO a person, place, substance or particular experience in the past. This is what you've been doing your entire life, Santa Claus brought me what I asked for and I was happy for a few hours. Santa Claus doesn't exist, the toy didn't make you happy, but those circumstances and beliefs allowed you to experience a window of time where no thoughts arose that fueled an underlying feeling that something was missing. 11 year old you thought, "Having a nerf gun would be great, I wish I had a new nerf gun, there's nothing good on TV right now, my brother ate all the oreos, that asshole!" Nothing has changed since. Everything has changed.  

It's Christmas everyday. Merry Christmas! Happy Birthday! Raise your standards for how you feel! Don't mistake the thought "I should feel better" for feeling itself. That thought is just as useless as a thought equating happiness with oreos or the nerf gun. 

Also note "feel better" has a double meaning. It means you're more aware, you heighten your senses, see with more clarity, AND AND AND you FEEL love. 

Maaagic. 

Yes but this experience of lack is free on psychedelics but sober it doesn't seem free at all. It's just "feeling" but feeling seems like it has been made extremely subtle as if I'm trying to find a needle in a haystack. That's all thought but it's easy to think compared to feeling. Can you get practice at feeling or is the idea of getting better at feeling a misconception? (I am already infinitely good at feeling). OK let's stop identifying with the idea that I'm bad at feeling. Now what? What am I identifying with now? I think I'm identifying with the idea that I don't see what I'm identifying with. None of this leads me anywhere though, there's always more bullshit to identify with (like this idea of there being incapable to not identify with new bullshit).

But then what even is identity? I definitely can't see, touch or hear identity but it's definitely ruling my life for the worse.

How do I not identify? I don't know, but I know there is 2 ways to not identify.

1) The real elegant way that grants you non-identification RIGHT NOW. and

2) Get a scale out, measure some 4-AcO-DMT and swallow it.

I guess the real thing I'm identifying with in this thread is frustration with fact there's a shortcut like #2. It's so misleading because I'm not getting better at #1 by using the shortcut. Now I see that doing #2 doesn't exclude #1 and so I can't say I'm a "victim" of #2, as some sort of excuse for not doing #1. At the end of the day this whole thread is just me whining about #2 to avoid doing #1. On top of that this way of seeing things is feeding into the idea that I'm some sort lazy person trying to escape his meditation and honestly this is how the thread started, I basically opened this thread instead of meditating.

Rubber ducking like this sure doesn't feel too bad, but pointing out the misconception I'm identifying with is different from not identifying. It's easier to just talk about it than to sit down and not identify. Now I'm just identifying with the idea that identifications are endless and unescapable, which is false obviously but even knowing this, I don't see it.

 

 

[4201]

10 hours ago, Nahm said:

@4201

People I have sessions with awaken. This is my normal day to day. The vast majority have never meditated or taken a psychedelic. None of this is due to me, nor can be credited to me in any way. I am no more responsible for their awakening than I am their previous suffering. What do you make of this? 

That you want a session??? 

I am perfectly aware that people can awaken psychedelic-free. That's essentially what I want.

[Nahm]

@4201

Want nonduality instead. Tame the ox. 

10 hours ago, TheDao said:

@Nahm How come I don't get it with watching your youtube video? Why are personal sessions necessary?

Sessions aren’t necessary, but to compare, just like anything else, you have to have the direct expereince to be able to compare the direct experience. 

[Flowerfaeiry]

There are many different types of psychedelics. Maybe you haven't found one that resonates with you. Or maybe you haven't had the right set/setting. 

2 hours ago, 4201 said:

I am perfectly aware that people can awaken psychedelic-free. That's essentially what I want.

Examine your "why" for this statement. Yes you can awaken psychedelic free, but why do you want this? Not saying one is more right than the other, just wondering your reasoning behind this desire. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Flowerfaeiry

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, 4201 said:

But at the same time, I don't want to wait for a week for my psychedelic tolerance to come off. 

Too thirsty.

 

 

[4201]

2 hours ago, Flowerfaeiry said:

There are many different types of psychedelics. Maybe you haven't found one that resonates with you. Or maybe you haven't had the right set/setting. 

Examine your "why" for this statement. Yes you can awaken psychedelic free, but why do you want this? Not saying one is more right than the other, just wondering your reasoning behind this desire. 

I want productivity so I can pay my rent. I very rarely have any productivity when lost in thought. I'm working on my own business so I got no manager to kick my ass if I'm not productive. This always puts productivity into question and whether or not it will be present on a certain day.

I'm making an indie game and trying to turn it into a source of revenue. I have a limited time until which I will have to get a job to pay for my living expenses. It either works or not and I don't mind the outcome, but seeing myself not giving my best in achieving my dream is excruciating. I wake up with the very strong desire and expectation to have a great day and actually do something, but then anything goes wrong becomes a spiral of doom and I find it difficult to get out of those spirals without psychedelics.

I can accept the fact that financial stability is a priviledge that I don't have and none of the lifestyle itself causes me pain or trouble. But I highly struggle accepting a "self that is not productive" because I know it's untrue and totally unnecessary pain. It's so ridiculous and pathetic to fall for the same traps everyday and suffering my own action for no reason whatsoever. To make it I need to be more present than once every 2 weeks. I don't need god consciousness everyday but I need a base level of consciousness to avoid falling for unproductive thoughts.

At this point I've been tripping on shrooms or LSD for every week or two for more than a year now and it sure helps being more present on the days around the trip but on the other days, it doesn't change much. I see how my life situation is unique and not everyone cares as much to be present all the time. At least in my case, it's a bit like a tease.

I always have the 5-MeO-DMT option though. I struggle with this option because of how psychedelic dependent that makes me in the end (and also the fact you need to stop eating for 4 hours or risk choking in your own vomit thing). I theorically could take 5 MeO every 3 days to try and fill the gaps but that sounds like a bigger struggle. Being able to maintain presence sober is definitely the way to go for me.

Edited May 11, 2021 by 4201

[vladorion]

3 hours ago, Flowerfaeiry said:

Examine your "why" for this statement. Yes you can awaken psychedelic free, but why do you want this? Not saying one is more right than the other, just wondering your reasoning behind this desire. 

Because psychedelic awakenings don't stick except in very rare cases, probably when a person was very close to it anyway.