Aren't psychedelics the ultimate tease?

[4201]

Why would one ever want to be awake only part-time? Yes you see everything on psychedelics but you had to force your mind to stop identifying with thought as if you can't do that without it. Doesn't it lead to a form of learned helplessness?

No matter how much more work it is to be able to stay present without psychedelics, it's infinitely more useful than being awake 10% of the time. I really love psychedelics and everytime I take them it's just amazing. But the doubts I have about my ability to wake up sober do not go away with psychedelics. You could say I should just not care about my ability to awaken without psychedelics but my ability to not care = my ability to awaken without psychedelics. The reality is no matter how great my psychedelic awakening are, I still feel shit for most of the time because of thought identification and no amount of psychedelics actually raise my ability to not identify with thought, it just temporarilly makes it easy.

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, 4201 said:

Why would one ever want to be awake only part-time?

This is such an absurd framing for 3 reasons:

1) All spiritual work is gradual. You might as well argue, why would anyone ever want to go to a meditation retreat to only awaken part time?

NOBODY awakens in one single shot. This is pure nonsense myths.

2) Time is an illusion. So the idea that a psychedelic awakening is "impermanent" or "temporary" is purely a delusion of the ego-mind. A psychedelic awakening is Absolute, and the Absolute does not care how long it lasts in human time. A psychedelic awakening is timeless and Eternal, even if it only lasts "15 minutes" in human time. Stop conflating time with truth. 1 second is as true as 1 million years.

3) To claim that psychedelic trips do not grow you is absurd and contradicts all the science on psychedelics.

[4201]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

This is such an absurd framing for two reasons:

1) All spiritual work is gradual. You might as well argue, why would anyone ever want to go to a meditation retreat to only awaken part time?

NOBODY awakens in one single shot. This is pure nonsense myths.

2) Time is an illusion. So the idea that a psychedelic awakening is "impermanent" or "temporary" is purely a delusion of the ego-mind. A psychedelics awakening is Absolute, and the Absolute does not care how long it lasts in human time.

Yeah but supposedly meditation is training an ability to focus, psychedelics just physically make it easier for the mind to do that temporarily.

In all honesty though, those things are beliefs I have about meditation and psychedelics. If we want to question everything then, what evidence do we have that meditation increases baseline consciousness (or ability to not identify with thought) and what evidence do we have psychedelics would do that too?

We have scientific papers saying some neural changes done by psychedelics might be permanent but it's a big gap to assume this means psychedelics increase baseline consciousness.

I don't have this evidence but it's easier to see how meditation would help more than psychedelics on this aspect, as meditation is literally trying to do that and psychedelics is taking something that does it for you.

Yes in the absolute the idea that I am not awake is false and all of my concerns are invalid, no psychedelic needed. I just don't see it though.

[Leo Gura]

34 minutes ago, 4201 said:

it's a big gap to assume this means psychedelics increase baseline consciousness.

The point is that it does not even matter if they do.

[4201]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The point is that it does not even matter if they do.

Yeah, you are totally right.

I think the main bullshit is thinking psychedelics somehow prevent me from doing meditation. Even if meditation is the only way to get better at not identifying with thought, it's not like "being teased" with amazing moments on psychedelics prevent me from practicing as much meditation as I would otherwise.

So I think I'll just shut up and meditate instead of crying because I'm midway in my LSD tolerance period 

Edited May 10, 2021 by 4201

[Leo Gura]

Psychedelics will certainly make meditation practice seem futile.

[BipolarGrowth]

I’ve found contemplation with the foundation of experience with psychedelics to be more beneficial for me than meditation with that same foundation. Contemplation has led to many palpable nondual states for me. Meditation can feel like you’re going against the current of the mind. Contemplation can feel like you’re going with that current. 
 

Also, is it really getting teased if you bust? ?

[Joel3102]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Psychedelics will certainly make meditation practice seem futile.

Why? Sure meditation won’t give you the same peaks, but meditation is better for increasing baseline level of consciousness over the long term 

[bazera]

@Leo Gura You've said in the past that meditation is the single most important self-improvement habit that one can have. Do you still think that way? 

I get the sense that your views on meditation changed over the last few years.

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, bazera said:

@Leo Gura You've said in the past that meditation is the single most important self-improvement habit that one can have. Do you still think that way? 

I get the sense that your views on meditation changed over the last few years.

That was like 5 years ago. A lot has changed since then for me.

[Craigxt22]

@Leo Gura I remember you mentioning in a video or on the forum somewhere that you changed you views on meditation.

 

I've been doing it now for 2 years daily, sometimes upto 3 hours and haven't noticed much difference in my life. I have a very active mind that I can never slow down, always over analysing everything. This is causing a lot of suffering for me.

 

I know this is down to me to experiment/ workout for myself, but do you think microdosing psilocybin could help produce better results? I'd also meditate around 30 mins a day on the side.

[bazera]

@Leo Gura What would you say to a beginner on meditation with your current state? I guess it's better than nothing

[TheDao]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Psychedelics will certainly make meditation practice seem futile.

@Leo Gura Yeah but how do you know psychedelics have truth too them? I am not saying your are wrong. But how are you so sure. If you want to get dum people like me too your place it would be nice if you could explain why this is different with this psychoactive substance.

Psychoactive substances can make things look important that are not for people not taking them. For example after drinking. Just because it gives such a profound feeling, doesn't mean its true. Why are you so sure? Just because it looks a bit like non duality teaching , that could be just a  coincidence.

Edited May 10, 2021 by TheDao

[Godishere]

@TheDao he could explain to you why for the next 100 years and you still wouldn't understand. Do them responsibly and find out for yourself, if you dare. It's like trying to explain colours to a blind person, it's not possible.

 

 

[Matt Skinner]

@Leo Gura Everyone is unique, of course, but—is your current view that a combo of yoga, psychedelics, and some type of contemplation/self-inquiry is probably the best cocktail of practices for progress? In general I mean.

Since you no longer consider meditation the most important practice...do you still think there is a single most important practice? Or have you bypassed blanket recommendations like that altogether?

My current routine seems to be working pretty well for me, so I’m just curious.

[TheDao]

24 minutes ago, Godishere said:

Do them responsibly and find out for yourself, if you dare.

@Godishere That's not convincing at all. Stimulate the temporal lobe and you will feel like everything is immense important and god. Doesn't mean there is something really important to it. He needs to convince dummies like me not if he wants much people into this? If it is convincing I need to stop all my meditation immediately, then they are a big waste of my short life.  And take that stuff instead.

Edited May 10, 2021 by TheDao

[Ry4n]

just do both and you'll be woke as fuck regardless. Obviously prioritise the meditation just because you can't exactly do psychedelics all that often if you care about safety. 

[Ry4n]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Psychedelics will certainly make meditation practice seem futile.

or they'll make you way better at meditation, did for me at least.

[Nahm]

@4201

People I have sessions with awaken. This is my normal day to day. The vast majority have never meditated or taken a psychedelic. None of this is due to me, nor can be credited to me in any way. I am no more responsible for their awakening than I am their previous suffering. What do you make of this? 

[Javfly33]

Yes they can raise baseline state of consciousness.. although I never liked that concept. It's very ambiguos to understand consciousness like a linear level thing .