Mistaking Christian/religious people as stage blue by default.

[Nightwise]

Hello.

For those few of you who may be unaware, when I say 'stage blue, stage yellow, stage turquoise' and such, I am referring to the spiral dynamics model which is commonly used on this forum. Search for it on Google if you're not aware what it is (or watch Leo's video's about it on his own Youtube channel)

I think 2/3 years ago I still used to consider people who adhere to the Christian religious tradition would automatically adhere as people who were less conscious, more dogmatic and more close-minded.

Experience has proven to me that this certainly doesn't always have to be the case. I currently have a spiritual counselor with whom I have a very good relationship with, and I never asked him but I think from what I have seen on his website he considers himself to be a Christian. I have certainly seen that he is interested in Christian teaching and the study of the Bible and psalm-reading. I can say that from looking at his website. At the same time though, he is openly gay, he is an incredibly good listener and a very compassionate and understanding man, and he never tries to enforce any sort of knowledge or doctrine onto me. He goes along with my experience and whenever he does give suggestions I can tell it's not because of something he's read but because of personal experience and insight. I've never asked him but I'm 99% sure he doesn't believe in such a notion as the heaven and hell as Christians usually portray it. He takes Christianity as a certain system that can help him bring closer to God, discarding the dogma and embracing the higher teachings that are also contained within it.

Another example: There is a guy whom I have read a book from and this person's name is Erwin McManus. I have found this book to be incredibly inspiring and deep and from there on I have also gone to check out his YouTube channel.

This guy is a pastor with his own church In Los Angeles, but he is unlike anything you would except from a pastor. He is modern, incredibly open-minded. He speaks in an electric, magnetic way. He is courageous, willing to question anything. Very surprisingly, I've heard him say that many of the people that are interested in his work and even come to his church consider themselves to be atheists. Yet, he is Christian and he talks quite a bit about 'following in the image of Jesus Christ' or 'accepting Christ into your heart'. And I must admit, I cringe a little bit when he says something like that, yet I understand on an intellectual level that he does not say that because he is dogmatic about it, but because Christianity and the teachings of Jesus have come to be a big inspiration to him. He doesn't speak of it because he has been conditioned that way. Also, he is also somewhat of an entrepreneur and a businessman.

I'll link you a video to a very inspiring interview with him and Ed Mylett.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ7Gvs7D-qg

Ultimately the give-away message with this topic is that you don't want to come to judge a person based on a certain faith or tradition that he/she adheres to, but that you want to see behind that labels and exterior and that you want to have a look at how this person actually relates to his/her faith or tradition without recourse to certain preconceived ideas you have about that, thereby potentially missing the depth and relationship that a person may actually have with this faith or tradition.

Same thing by the way with science; Just as there are people who interact with religion from a stage yellow/turquoise perspective, so are there people who are deeply passionate about science but who do so from a stage yellow/turquoise standpoint.

Just don't judge too quickly to say that someone is in 'stage blue' because that person has a great interest in a certain religion, and don't say someone is merely in 'stage orange' because this person has a deep passion and commitment to science, and so forth. 

That's just a warning I wanted to give.

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Nightwise

[Michal__]

Yes, religious people are not dumb by default.

Nowadays there's less people that are purely blue .

Also, there's enlightenment even at blue (Zen guys, some Christian mystics etc)

[Tetcher]

I've always disagreed with the notion of superior and inferior stage in spiral dynamics. Stage green deconstructivism or stage yellow can be seen as indecisiveness and ADHD. A farmer devoted to his daily life produces the food that feeds those that deem themselves stage yellow and he may  live with much more meditativeness and silence than those that deem themselves at a superior stage. That farmer doesn't have the time and luxury to invest into endless thoughts. How would Einstein would have performed if he had to produce his own food, we don't know that.

[SgtPepper]

Yes. That's because most people's experience of Christians are those who just adopt beliefs and ideology.

So they think, thats what Christians are like; while never actually meeting saints, monks, nuns, or mystics who have a much more nuanced and deeper realization. 

[lmfao]

@Nightwise Good post. Religion is entwined so much in the matrixes of culture, society, upbringing and culture. So in some sense you need a discerning eye to see beyond the outer layer, for we struggle to express ourselves, and can only rely on the language and tongue native to us. 

Despite that however, I prefer to keep it simple a lot of the time for cutting through shit. It depends on the purpose of the conversation as well. 

--
In reference to those different people you were talking about, I know a woman who's a strange mix of blue and green. They really are a Muslim who believes everything in the Quran is true literally, but their nature is very green and very empathetic/multi-perspectival values in how they act and view things. Very liberal and tolerant. 

That's such a strange contradiction to me, insane and illogical. Too much cognitive dissonance. I have concern because I can see two opposing forces, and it already causes internal conflict.


Cognitive dissonance such as these would send me into an existential crises or would turn everything upside down, but some people manage to ignore it and don't think in the same way.

Many normies have such a large capacity for cognitive dissonance, because they don't wish to actually question or reflect on what truth is.

My tolerance for cognitive dissonance is so small that at heart, I am a zealous extremist of sorts. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by lmfao

[Preety_India]

I think stage Blue is any system that is run by rigid rules, little flexibility.

 

[blackchair]

im Christian......

[ted73104]

It really depends on who, because there are all kinds of people in the church. The stage you're on actually depends more on the people who actually brought you up, like your parents and family, or maybe your teachers at school. Your pastor or the people who you attend service together may have some influence, but not too much.

So there are people on all stages, but of course most people are on stage blue or even red in my experience.

[blackchair]

56 minutes ago, ted73104 said:

It really depends on who, because there are all kinds of people in the church. The stage you're on actually depends more on the people who actually brought you up, like your parents and family, or maybe your teachers at school. Your pastor or the people who you attend service together may have some influence, but not too much.

So there are people on all stages, but of course most people are on stage blue or even red in my experience.

you can be turqoise Christian

[Bojan V]

The only Christians i know are Roman-Catholics and they are homophobic, racist and dogmatic. I also know one Muslim guy. He thinks Jews are the worse people in the world and that Roma people(gypsys) should be killed. He refered to them with "it" word. This is horrible to hear.

So i would really like to know some loving Christians and Muslims who wouldn't want to kill me and send me in hell becose i am gay.@blackchair

8 hours ago, blackchair said:

im Christian......

How do you navigate between being a Christian and gay? I am half Croat and i know that many catholics are homophobic.

[blackchair]

43 minutes ago, Bojan V said:

The only Christians i know are Roman-Catholics and they are homophobic, racist and dogmatic. I also know one Muslim guy. He thinks Jews are the worse people in the world and that Roma people(gypsys) should be killed. He refered to them with "it" word. This is horrible to hear.

So i would really like to know some loving Christians and Muslims who wouldn't want to kill me and send me in hell becose i am gay.@blackchair

How do you navigate between being a Christian and gay? I am half Croat and i know that many catholics are homophobic.

focus on yourself and your faith with something bigger than you, let other people go in your mind, i dont have any problem with being gay and Christian nor people around me, maybe im very very specific case i dont know honestly, but im blessed for sure and humble......