Who Wants A 2-hr Jordy P Analysis Video?

[Forestluv]

7 hours ago, TheDao said:

I had very specific critique on why Jordan is very Green as well. 

If you think JP is very Green, you don't understand Spiral Dynamics. 

JP may have a smidgeon of Green, yet this is overwhelmed by his blue/orange anchors and massive Green shadow. 

The stages of purple, blue and green are community-based stages and each level has greater inclusion, egalitarianism, empathy and equity for a more expansive community. Blue is more expansive than Purple and Green is more expansive than both Purple and Blue. 

Purple and Blue contain a level of inclusion, empathy and equity - it is just at a lower level than Green. So saying JP displays empathy means nothing without context. A purple-level tribesman could show empathy for a fellow tribesman that was injured during a hunt.

As well, people are mixtures of stages. No one is 100% one stage. Each individual is within a social system that is a mixture of stages and each individual will be a influenced by that social system. It's more accurate to say someone is "centered" in a stage. For example, JP could be 40% blue, 50% Orange, 10% Green and 5% yellow, yet his small portion of Green could be overwhelmed by his Blue/Orange anchors and massive Green shadow. As well, his small portion of green and yellow would be used for a blue/orange agenda. 

Let's assume that JP was completely genuine while shedding tears for men that are struggling. Let's say that as a clinical psychologist, JP met with hundreds of men that were suffering and genuinely feels for them and wants to help them. Even if this is all true, it's not Green because his "community" is too contracted. Green community is more expansive and inclusive than men struggling with their gender. JP's community size would be more expansive than Purple, yet more contracted than Green. It would be like someone who felt for their fellow Catholics that are facing religious persecution. And this is being generous as we are assuming JP is completely generous and his constructs of gender are accurate. 

Assuming JP is genuine, the hint of green in JP would be him showing vulnerability and crying in front of others. That is counter to a standard blue/orange male role in which the man is the pillar of strength and doesn't express feminine emotions like crying. Assuming he is genuine, I would consider that green and it is good to show other men that it's ok for a man express 'feminine' emotions and cry. Yet this flash of green-ness does not put JP as very green. His structure is based on blue and orange constructs - not green. 

JP has stuff to offer in blue / orange to help bring up men through blue and into orange. This has value. Yet JPs poison is his intense green shadow and demonizing green as the cause of men's suffering. He characterizes men as victims. In the video you posted, he characterizes green as tyrants that are painting men as evil, misogynistic repressors. This is not a perspective of Green men. This is the perspective of blue men. 

A green perspective would acknowledge that a portion of men are struggling with identity. Yet a higher perspective can see how much of this is due to green-level progress that is expanding inclusion and community. Green level community is more expansive than blue. Green includes men, women, LGBTQ and doesn't have strict gender roles. This triggers blue/orange men like JP. Green is more progressive than than JP's center of gravity. 

[TheDao]

7 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

If you think JP is very Green, you don't understand Spiral Dynamics. 

 

@Forestluv Or you dont understand Jordan and are locked into paradigm lock with your version of feminism which is less inclusive then Jordans. He sees feminism has been failing men and because he sees the overview he purposfully focusses on that. He 'll kick Leos ass if he were aloud too speak . You are the one triggered and have difficulty listening to him not Jordan. Leo even called it crocodile tears. How defensive are you if you need to twist reality like that?

Edited May 10, 2021 by TheDao

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, TheDao said:

@Forestluv Or you dont understand Jordan and are locked into paradigm lock with your version of feminism which is less inclusive then Jordans. He sees feminism has been failing men and because he sees the overview he purposfully focusses on that. He 'll kick Leos ass if he were aloud too speak 

Of everything I wrote, you simply quote the first line and dismiss what I wrote? Did you even read and consider what I wrote? 

Rather than dismissing Jordan's view, I am including it in a larger view that includes his view. 

The view I offered of Jordan and SD is more inclusive than Jordan's view because it includes Jordan's view and more. That is a key feature of Spiral Dynamics - it includes previous stages and more.  It's not that Jordan's views are inherently 'wrong'. Rather, they are contracted and limited. 

It would be like you telling me that a map of Europe is less inclusive than a map of France. A map of Europe is more expansive because it includes France and more. A map of France dismisses Europe, yet a map of Europe does not dismiss France. 

As well, a meta view does not have "my version of feminism" because it includes all versions of feminism. It's like saying "a library's version of a book". This doesn't make sense since a library doesn't have a version of a book - it includes many types of books. 

Moving up inclusion stages of the spiral (purple, blue, green, turquoise) involves greater inclusion. 

 

[TheDao]

16 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Of everything I wrote, you simply quote the first line in which I state JP isn't Green and you don't understand SD?

@Forestluv You don't understand JP and are defensive about it. This is how the discussion goes:

First his arguments get simplified into something as: society is unfair , deal with it. Then when this doesnt work, his feelings get dismissed and he get dehumanized: it are crocodiletears. Then when there is no way around that , I didnt understand it or another user says : no problem that men drop out of school. My o my you are really trying everything to not hear him. But I see it all the time. Somehow he is very dangerous for you.

This video will be to long to watch for most. But if you watch it you'll see how nice he can fit in with a talk of a leading feminist about the sneaky ways men are not heard or underappreciated, with in the end very bad consequences. Calling him bad in green sounds dum to me. Do you know why this leading feminist started decades ago trying to free men at risk of losing his career? Because if you dont free men, you'll stay stuck in the same dynamics. This feminist started with this decades ago, he went straight against feminism which was only concerned about women. This video will be a big threat to you I think.

Also you way overestimate the value of a model of everything. It is a gross simplification of life. 

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JP has stuff to offer in blue / orange to help bring up men through blue and into orange. This has value. Yet JPs poison is his intense green shadow and demonizing green as the cause of men's suffering. He characterizes men as victims. In the video you posted, he characterizes green as tyrants that are painting men as evil, misogynistic repressors.

No he is using strong words cause otherwise you wont listen at all. If you stop using the simplistic gross patriarchy frame all the time and instead use different lenses, then things will go way smoother. So your aloud to say women are victims and not men, why? Sounds like a one sided story to me then.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by TheDao

[Focus Shift]

JP is one of my favorite figures (as is this platform), but I thought the critique was very precise and fair. I like how it showed what multiple states of consciousness get right, as well as what they need to integrate. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Focus Shift

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, TheDao said:

@Forestluv You don't understand JP and are defensive about it. This is how the discussion goes:

First his arguments get simplified into something as: society is unfair , deal with it. Then when this doesnt work, his feelings get dismissed and he get dehumanized: it are crocodiletears. Then when there is no way around that , I didnt understand it or another user says : no problem that men drop out of school. My o my you are really trying everything to not hear him. But I see it all the time. Somehow he is very dangerous for you.

Did you even read the view I wrote?

I offered a view in which we assume Jordan was 100% genuine with his tears. I even gave reasons why Jordan was 100% genuine with his tears!! As well, I said it was genuine empathy and vulnerability with aspects of Green. And, I said JP has a lot of value to offer. 

One of the traps of blue/orange is it can only see "my view" vs. "your opposite view". What I wrote includes aspects that you agree with! 

You are arguing with someone else that has a different view. If you would like to discuss what I wrote, please read what I wrote and consider it. Otherwise, you are arguing against someone else's view. 

16 minutes ago, TheDao said:

But if you watch it you'll see how nice he can fit in with a talk of a leading feminist about the sneaky ways men are not heard or underappreciated. Calling him bad in green sounds dum to me. Do you know why this leading feminist started decades ago trying to free men at risk of losing his career? Because if you dont free men, you'll stay stuck in the same dynamics. This feminist started with this decades ago. This video will be a big threat to you I think.

The point you are missing is that I see value in what you and Jordan are writing. I am a man that had struggles with gender identity and my role in society. Many of my male student's have gender issues and I try to help them. I think Jordan can make contributions in certain areas. However, he does it in a way that creates exclusion, victimization, demons and conflict toward stage green.

[Thought Art]

@TheDao The seat of emotion is what our intellects sit down on. 

In my opinion you defending JP from a place in which forestluv isn't even poking you. He is agreeing he is valuable my friend. 

But, like anyone has good and bad elements. 

 

[TheDao]

9 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

However, he does it in a way that creates exclusion, victimization, demons and conflict. 

@Forestluv Nope he doesn't . That's what feminist did from the beginning with making the patriarchy theory central. Which was acceptabel a long time ago , but now times change. And now you are so identified with it you have to fight for it as a lion. Its a very shallow view. Jordon goes further than that. That's the problem with your blue/orange way. You have to start seeing the theory is a gross simplification and a one sided view. Sometimes you need to create some disharmony to break lose of old destructive patterns. Jordan notices that he has got the straight back and speaking skills to make this change. But it will be a big challenge, there is a lot of underdeveloped green. You have a big blind spot if you think he is doing this for fun getting so much backlash. He is deeply caring.

Edited May 10, 2021 by TheDao

[Thought Art]

6 minutes ago, TheDao said:

@Forestluv Nope he doesn't . That's what feminist did from the beginning with making the patriarchy theory central. Which was acceptabel a long time ago , but now times change. And now you are so identified with it you have to fight for it as a lion. Its a very shallow view. Jordon goes further than that. That's the problem with your blue/orange way. You have to start seeing the theory is a gross simplification and a one sided view. Sometimes you need to create some disharmony to break lose of old destructive patterns. Jordan notices that he has got the straight back and speaking skills to make this change.

Stage green is a pretty deep subject my friend. What are you saying is not encompassing of stage green values, nor all of JP's values on stage green.

There is a lot more to stage green than that theory. Green isn't the same thing as ideology, but people centered around green will have their share of false beliefs and true beliefs, beliefs of high quality and lower quality. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Thought Art

[TheDao]

1 minute ago, Thought Art said:

What are you saying is not encompassing of stage green values,

The men subject is just one example. You have to start somewhere.

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, TheDao said:

@Forestluv Nope he doesn't . That's what feminist did from the beginning with making the patriarchy theory central. And now you are so identified with it you have to fight for it as a lion. Its a very shallow view. Jordon goes further than that. That's the problem with your blue/orange way. You have to start seeing the theory is a gross simplification and a one sided view. Sometimes you need to create some disharmony to break lose of old destructive patterns.

I said JP creates constructs of conflict. I didn't say he is the only entity that creates or participates in conflict.

Notice how you just asserted JP's position that creates conflict. You wrote that JP doesn't create conflict it is the feminists he is in conflict with!! Look to see how this is conflict (against 'the feminists' that cause the conflict).

As well, notice how you are assuming that I have a position on feminism and are projecting that onto me. Have I even mentioned feminism once prior to this (no?). Do you have any idea of what my views on feminism are (no). Are you aware that I agree with aspects of what you say regarding feminism?

The 'theory' that you speak of is not my theory. I was speaking of a different theory called Spiral Dynamics theory, which is not mine. It was developed by other people. As well, SD goes beyond simple theory. Deeper understandings come from actual beingness of it. Direct experience is really important. If you want to expand, then you will need to engage in activities that lead to expansion. 

[TheDao]

@Forestluv you still havnt understood JP at all. No he is breaking down constructs of conflict (patriarchy simplicity)

You are putting in no effort to understand what I articulate. No worse you are trying not to understand it, even worse. O he is not aloud to disagree with aspects of feminism. This is to threatening for you so you dismiss it as creating conflict. Well with your logic feminism at whole is creating way more conflict. Stop being green, your creating conflict! Diversity of opinion is difficult for you?

Edited May 10, 2021 by TheDao

[Thought Art]

2 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I said JP creates constructs of conflict. Notice how you just asserted JP's position that creates conflict. You wrote that JP doesn't create conflict it is the feminists he is in conflict with!! Look to see how this is conflict (against 'the feminists' that cause the conflict).

As well, notice how you are assuming that I have a position on feminism and are projecting that onto me. Have I even mentioned feminism once prior to this (no?). Do you have any idea of what my views on feminism are (no). Are you aware that I agree with aspects of what you say regarding feminism?

The 'theory' that you speak of is not my theory. I was speaking of a different theory called Spiral Dynamics theory, which is not mine. It was developed by other people. And you've made no effort to understand what I'm trying to articulate. 

People come at things with different models and qualities of understanding. Spiral dynamics might not even begin to compute for people who are essentially ideological. Not only Idealogical but epistemologically paper thin. Has few connections. Feels emotional about something, so they don't fully read what you read. Someone projecting their mental model onto your words.

 

You two should use the socratic method ahahah Which is hard when spiral dynamics takes like 50+ hours of study.  

[TheDao]

3 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

People come at things with different models and qualities of understanding. Spiral dynamics might not even begin to compute for people who are essentially ideological. Not only Idealogical but epistemologically paper thin. Has few connections. Feels emotional about something, so they don't fully read what you read. Someone projecting their mental model onto your words.

@Thought ArtA your defensive again? So you need to project everything. Why are you guys so immature? Misusing spiral dynamics as a weapon and all different sneaky tactics to put away JP. Common learn to debate properly. Take a course from JP for example.

Edited May 10, 2021 by TheDao

[Thought Art]

@TheDao JP has good teachings. But, if you meet buddha in the middle of the road, kill him.

I also put myself into this because I have relatively low level of understanding of reality as I am a young person. 

You are fine. I am not saying you are right or wrong. It's more about the style of interaction I am having with you that is very "You are with us or against us" and then you make assumptions about the aspects of his views we don't like, or you think that those aspects of his view are right. Which is fine. We might not agree on things today. This is reality ahahah.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Thought Art

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, TheDao said:

@Forestluv you still havnt understood JP at all. You are putting in no effort to understand what I articulate. No worse you are trying not to understand it, even worse. O he is not aloud to disagree with aspects of feminism. This is to threatening for you so you dismiss it as creating conflict. Well with your logic feminism at whole is creating way more conflict. Stop being green, your creating conflict!

To have conflict, one must have a position they are defending against another position. There must be two people with opposing views. Yet I don't have the opposing view as you.

The view I offer includes the below components. Please tell me if this is the opposite view as yours:

-- JP is genuine in his tears

-- JP is showing genuine empathy

--JP shows aspects of Green including vulnerability while expressing emotional tears

-- There are genuine reasons that JP cares about male issues.

-- JP points to important issues that men struggle with and that society overlooks.

-- We should consider gender-based struggles men go through

-- Some progressives have contributed to conflict that has intensified struggles some men go through

[TheDao]

@Forestluv Agreed. Only you also say he has a big green shadow. Don't agree. Not from what I have seen.

Edited May 10, 2021 by TheDao

[Forestluv]

35 minutes ago, TheDao said:

@Forestluv Agreed. Only you also say he has a big green shadow. Don't agree.

One cannot see a green shadow until they integrate green. 

The most challenging part about Green is being introduced to relativity and multiple perspectives.

For example, it would be extremely difficult for a straight male to understand what it's like to be transgender. Personally, I had to have many conversations with transgender people. Not just at a surface level. At a deeper level about what it's like. I immersed myself in LGBTQ and polyamory groups to get a feel for what it's like. I participated in a polyamorous relationship and community. I explored my own sexuality, gender and femininity. Although I can fully understand the experience of a transgender person, I'm pretty good at imagining it. 

I'm able to take out my lens and put in an "LGBTQ lens". From this lens, it's clear that JP is not inclusive toward the LGBTQ community. Again, we are not viewing this from JPs view, we are viewing it from the view of a transgender person. As a transgender person, I would not feel inclusion, empathy, emotional connection with JP. That is why JP's audience has very few transgender people. Rather, JP can see through the lens of certain males that struggle with male gender issues. Those are real issues. Yet JP can only wear that lens. Being able to relate and wear different lenses is a high level metacognitive skill and JP doesn't have it. Yet I'm not saying the lens JP is wearing is 100% wrong. I'm saying it is limited.

If a mind can only view through one lens it will be a myopic view and if the person tries to create a big picture, there will be distortion. 

Imagine we are creating a musical event for a community. We can only speak English and we only allow English to be spoken. As well, only western style clothing can be worn. Only women can wear make-up. We would be qualified to create an English-speaking event with traditional western culture. That is fine if everyone in the that community shares that. . . Yet notice how this is actually a subset of a larger community. . . . Imagine a few Spanish people enter as well as a transgender woman wearing make-up. Under the rules of our community event, the two Spanish people are not allowed to speak a word of Spanish and the transgender woman must remove all her make-up. Imagine what this would feel like from the perspective of the transgender person. They would not feel included, since they are being excluded. I'm not saying this is inherently wrong. I'm pointing out that there are different ranges of community expansion. Green is more expansive than blue. A green-level community event would not simply tolerate LGBTQ - they would want some LGBTQ people there, expressing their LGBTQ-ness, because that adds to diversity and inclusion to the community event - which green values. 

JP has some inclusivity and empathy, yet JP does not have a high level of inclusivity and empathy. His inclusivity and empathy is contracted to those he relates with -> a subset of men going through certain struggles. Notice how JP can feel empathy and cry for a subset of men that are struggling, yet he doesn't show empathy and cry for transgender women that are struggling. His understanding, inclusivity and empathy is contracted. 

[TheDao]

34 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

The most challenging part about Green is being introduced to relativity and multiple perspectives.

 

Yes work on that. You havnt integrated that yet. Jordan has. Your for example stuck in your patriarchy view. Thats why you cant see your shadow.

 

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From this lens, it's clear that JP is not inclusive toward the LGBTQ community

 

 

 

Because he has critique you find difficult to handle? Like its not ok to force others gender pronouns by law.

 

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JP has some inclusivity and empathy, yet JP does not have a high level of inclusivity and empathy. His inclusivity and empathy is contracted to those he relates with -> a subset of men going through certain struggles

Again I have to repeat myself. The feminist was decades ago busy with men rights . Why because he saw if you don't free them the whole doesn't work. Peterson is just a step ahead of you and seeing the whole he knows what needs extra focus now. You have to investigate your green! 

Just because he understands your shortcomings on green and mainstream ones and you become defensive doesn't mean he has a shadow. That's your ego playing tricks with you.

Edited May 10, 2021 by TheDao

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, TheDao said:

Yes work on that. You havnt integrated that yet. Jordan has. Your for example stuck in your patriarchy view. Thats why you cant see your shadow.

This isn't about "me" vs "you". That type of personalization is a block. 

Here on the forum, we have an opportunity to expand. For example, those contracted within science has the opportunity to expand beyond science. Those contracted within a religion can expand beyond religion. Those contracted within JP can expand beyond JP.

Imagine expanding beyond the teacher itself. Imagine learning guitar and expanding to a level higher than your guitar teacher. Imagine learning a foreign language and expanding to a level higher than your language teacher. . .