New contemplation techniques ?

[Rohit Kuna]

Hello everyone,

From past several months I have been contemplating about the topic "reference points/frames". Whenever I contemplate, I try hard to start with scratch and try assuming as less things as possible. I always try not to leave any new branch/related topic untouched. Still I'm in the process of contemplation of this topic. Here is an excerpt from my journal ( here I tried expressing in few words as my the journal notes are very long ):

"

What are references really?

We set our own references based on the similarities n differences we prefer to focus on. We draw boundaries and constructions which help us aid our survival and help maintain our sense of reality.

"

Now here I'm using so many other terms like 'similarities and differences' , 'boundaries', 'survival', etc. which in themself need many contemplation sessions. So in the process I branch off to one of these interdependent topics.

I started contemplating about survival. While contemplating survival, I ran into other topics like before survival I need to address "Who am I". I started seeing that this again leads to self inquiry i.e. identity thing which coincides with topic of "references". I realised that there are no limits to what I can identify as myself. My body, surrounding air, nature, etc. I'm feeling reality is very fluid field with no boundaries at all. Fluid and entangling.

The point is whenever I take a topic and contemplate, it branches off so many times. Then I go about contemplating that branch and again come back to original thought chain or continue contemplating further branches. I see these labels I'm assigning and the language that I'm using is so limited and every word is is inextricably interdependent. ( To define something we need to define other related words n so on. )

So my question is " are there any new ways/ methods which are more flexible than language ?" I feel to get at the core essence of contemplation we need to go beyond the language. When I contemplate I tend to draw a lot because drawing and imagination is so much more flexible and accurate for me. It gives so much more freedom.

 

Has anyone tried different new ways of conscious contemplation ?

• Through lucid dreaming.
• Visualisationtechniques.
• Procedureto effectively contemplate using journal.
• Or something completely different...

 

And also more importantly effective documentation techniques  like using ?

• Drawing
• Symbols
• Shortstories
• Diagrams
• Connected Graphs.

What are your thoughts on this ? 

[BipolarGrowth]

Contemplation is not a tool to be used for understanding alone. It should produce noticeable and relevant shifts in consciousness ideally. This is a ball of yarn you’ll be unraveling yourself. You are going in the right direction. Knowledge of Self or identity are typically the most fruitful focuses for contemplation. 
 

 

This video was quite useful for transforming my contemplation to be more effective. 

[Rohit Kuna]

@BipolarGrowth  Thanks man, I too am trying different methods like dream journaling and thought experiments/visualisations. I'm experimenting a lot with dream states. Will surely try this "guided excercise" !

 

[BipolarGrowth]

Would you like to see my notes/writing from contemplation on dreams? It’s not contemplation from dream states but rather contemplation of how the experience of dreams informs what we can know is true

[Rohit Kuna]

@BipolarGrowth

2 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Would you like to see my notes/writing from contemplation on dreams? It’s not contemplation from dream states but rather contemplation of how the experience of dreams informs what we can know is true

Wow interesting !! I'm in search of different perspectives.

I feel dream states are kind of "fluid state (altered consciousness state)" in which we get to know about our subconscious mind more, every dream tells something of me that is unhealed. They are rich and full of exuberant energy. And I am finding it easy to work within dreams because it's so much more easier, thought flow n manifestation are quicker, when I wake up I find myself energized and peaceful. I am looking forward to work with dreams because "if I could heal in my sleep time isn't it cool !!"

(Btw becoming aware or conscious in my dreams is the skill I'm still developing. But I have become good at remembering my dreams.)

So yes, I would love to hear your perspective n experience !! ?

[BipolarGrowth]

@Rohit Kuna here’s what I wrote in my notes about it 

 

Solving the mind-body problem by understanding dreams

 

When you go to sleep at night, you often find yourself in dreams. In these dreams, most people will still have a human body. In waking reality, there is an unsubstantiated claim or story given by people that consciousness is somehow generated by the brain. The experts aren’t so sure, or at least they don’t have any solid evidence. Look up the “hard problem of consciousness” to understand how this is unsubstantiated. In the dream, you typically do not think along the same lines. If you were to lucid dream, you would certainly not think you were the dream body or somehow generated by the brain in your dream head. I say you, but I need to clarify exactly who you are. 

 

You are consciousness. Consciousness is the only constant you can find in all realities. In the dream, you are literally everything perceived in the dream. It’s all generated by your consciousness. We understand fully that everything created in our dreams comes entirely from us and is an extension of us. Surprisingly enough, there’s no solid argument against this being exactly the same case in waking reality. Your brain, body, and mind are all generated by consciousness in the same fashion consciousness generates the entire reality in dreams. Beyond your mind, body, and brain, you as consciousness generate this entire reality. This entire reality IS consciousness and nothing else. It’s the same way in a dream; nothing is separate from you as consciousness. You as consciousness are the sole source for everything in the dream. No one thinks everyone in their dreams are conscious, separate entities once they’ve come back to the waking state. It’s the same in this reality. 

 

There’s absolutely no way you can actually be shown something outside of your consciousness. There will never ever be proof that other beings are conscious separately or outside of your consciousness. Even if you merged consciousness with another being in the waking state as a way to somehow prove the existence of another consciousness, guess what it would be? It would be fully engulfed in exactly one thing: you as consciousness or otherwise put your consciousness. You are the source of everything that exists in your consciousness, and your consciousness is the entirety of your universe and always will be. Nothing can ever exist outside of your consciousness. Existence relies completely on perception and consciousness to even be relevant. What is the difference between a fairytale land in a book, the black void people typically conceive of as nothingness or nonexistence, and a reality you imagine exists like heaven? They’re all just imagination. The only thing that’s real is what you can experience in this very moment. As soon as something exits consciousness, it exits existence. There’s no proof for something existing outside of consciousness, and there never will be because the most fundamental building block in any proof is, you guessed it, consciousness. Before using reason or logic or any other conceptual tool to prove something you use precisely one thing first: consciousness. 

 

Even if you and I are both conscious entities, we live in completely different “universes of consciousness.” Precisely, that is to say that one consciousness can never be shown another consciousness to exist without perceiving the other consciousness through the lens of the original consciousness. As soon as one consciousness comes into the other, the secondary consciousness immediately becomes an aspect of the primary consciousness. So if you were to completely merge your consciousness with mine, your consciousness would be held within my consciousness, and it would be the same for you if the process were done from your perspective. This is a clear mechanic of consciousness. We can never know if the person sitting across the lunch table from us is conscious. We can only assume one way or the other. 

 

Anything imagined to be separate from the perspective of the original consciousness will always just be one more aspect of the original consciousness. In this way, we are entirely alone as consciousness. We are not alone as human beings. There are plenty of humans walking around. You can clearly perceive that, but by the very nature of perception, consciousness cannot perceive another consciousness without it immediately becoming another aspect of itself. Consciousness cannot perceive another consciousness as some sort of separate thing. Once the “other” consciousness is viewed, it only exists as long as it is in contact with the primary consciousness - the point of perception, and it is only truly the primary consciousness the entire time. In this way, you can never truly share space with another consciousness. You cannot perceive another consciousness. 

 

Anything you perceive is just you. You are consciousness. Everything is you. Everything is consciousness. It will be this way for eternity. You as consciousness will likely visit innumerable dreamt up worlds that you’ve created. You’ll perceive yourself as some kind of avatar or character as far as we can tell. You’ll at first see all the rest of the characters in your dreamt up creation as separate from you, but in truth those dream characters are just as much you as your primary character is. They’re just characters held within consciousness. One, your primary character who you at first feel to live inside, simply exists in your consciousness more of the time than the others. Ultimately neither the other characters or your perceived primary character is you because you are the consciousness that permeates all aspects of the dream world including its laws of physics, characters, objects, and everything else. You aren’t the characters any more than you are the objects or the laws of motion that govern that reality. You are all aspects of that reality. You are all aspects of all realities. 

 

A reality can only exist within you. Something is only real to you if it is held within your consciousness. No realities exist outside of the one you are experiencing right now. This waking state planet Earth does not exist when you are in a dream. Your wife could tell you that the world still existed while you were asleep, but you have to see how this is exactly the same as if your dream wife told you the dream reality was there while you were asleep. It means nothing because you as consciousness were not there. That seems to be the pattern in what we can verify between both the waking state and dreams.

[Rohit Kuna]

@BipolarGrowth

1 hour ago, BipolarGrowth said:

@Rohit Kuna here’s what I wrote in my notes about it 

 

Solving the mind-body problem by understanding dreams

 

When you go to sleep at night, you often find yourself in dreams. In these dreams, most people will still have a human body. In waking reality, there is an unsubstantiated claim or story given by people that consciousness is somehow generated by the brain. The experts aren’t so sure, or at least they don’t have any solid evidence. Look up the “hard problem of consciousness” to understand how this is unsubstantiated. In the dream, you typically do not think along the same lines. If you were to lucid dream, you would certainly not think you were the dream body or somehow generated by the brain in your dream head. I say you, but I need to clarify exactly who you are. 

 

You are consciousness. Consciousness is the only constant you can find in all realities. In the dream, you are literally everything perceived in the dream. It’s all generated by your consciousness. We understand fully that everything created in our dreams comes entirely from us and is an extension of us. Surprisingly enough, there’s no solid argument against this being exactly the same case in waking reality. Your brain, body, and mind are all generated by consciousness in the same fashion consciousness generates the entire reality in dreams. Beyond your mind, body, and brain, you as consciousness generate this entire reality. This entire reality IS consciousness and nothing else. It’s the same way in a dream; nothing is separate from you as consciousness. You as consciousness are the sole source for everything in the dream. No one thinks everyone in their dreams are conscious, separate entities once they’ve come back to the waking state. It’s the same in this reality. 

 

There’s absolutely no way you can actually be shown something outside of your consciousness. There will never ever be proof that other beings are conscious separately or outside of your consciousness. Even if you merged consciousness with another being in the waking state as a way to somehow prove the existence of another consciousness, guess what it would be? It would be fully engulfed in exactly one thing: you as consciousness or otherwise put your consciousness. You are the source of everything that exists in your consciousness, and your consciousness is the entirety of your universe and always will be. Nothing can ever exist outside of your consciousness. Existence relies completely on perception and consciousness to even be relevant. What is the difference between a fairytale land in a book, the black void people typically conceive of as nothingness or nonexistence, and a reality you imagine exists like heaven? They’re all just imagination. The only thing that’s real is what you can experience in this very moment. As soon as something exits consciousness, it exits existence. There’s no proof for something existing outside of consciousness, and there never will be because the most fundamental building block in any proof is, you guessed it, consciousness. Before using reason or logic or any other conceptual tool to prove something you use precisely one thing first: consciousness. 

 

Even if you and I are both conscious entities, we live in completely different “universes of consciousness.” Precisely, that is to say that one consciousness can never be shown another consciousness to exist without perceiving the other consciousness through the lens of the original consciousness. As soon as one consciousness comes into the other, the secondary consciousness immediately becomes an aspect of the primary consciousness. So if you were to completely merge your consciousness with mine, your consciousness would be held within my consciousness, and it would be the same for you if the process were done from your perspective. This is a clear mechanic of consciousness. We can never know if the person sitting across the lunch table from us is conscious. We can only assume one way or the other. 

 

Anything imagined to be separate from the perspective of the original consciousness will always just be one more aspect of the original consciousness. In this way, we are entirely alone as consciousness. We are not alone as human beings. There are plenty of humans walking around. You can clearly perceive that, but by the very nature of perception, consciousness cannot perceive another consciousness without it immediately becoming another aspect of itself. Consciousness cannot perceive another consciousness as some sort of separate thing. Once the “other” consciousness is viewed, it only exists as long as it is in contact with the primary consciousness - the point of perception, and it is only truly the primary consciousness the entire time. In this way, you can never truly share space with another consciousness. You cannot perceive another consciousness. 

 

Anything you perceive is just you. You are consciousness. Everything is you. Everything is consciousness. It will be this way for eternity. You as consciousness will likely visit innumerable dreamt up worlds that you’ve created. You’ll perceive yourself as some kind of avatar or character as far as we can tell. You’ll at first see all the rest of the characters in your dreamt up creation as separate from you, but in truth those dream characters are just as much you as your primary character is. They’re just characters held within consciousness. One, your primary character who you at first feel to live inside, simply exists in your consciousness more of the time than the others. Ultimately neither the other characters or your perceived primary character is you because you are the consciousness that permeates all aspects of the dream world including its laws of physics, characters, objects, and everything else. You aren’t the characters any more than you are the objects or the laws of motion that govern that reality. You are all aspects of that reality. You are all aspects of all realities. 

 

A reality can only exist within you. Something is only real to you if it is held within your consciousness. No realities exist outside of the one you are experiencing right now. This waking state planet Earth does not exist when you are in a dream. Your wife could tell you that the world still existed while you were asleep, but you have to see how this is exactly the same as if your dream wife told you the dream reality was there while you were asleep. It means nothing because you as consciousness were not there. That seems to be the pattern in what we can verify between both the waking state and dreams.

Amazing there are lot of insights in there !! It would take me a while to fathom the depth of it !! Thanks for taking time to share your insights !!

There are lot of similarities in dreams n reality, I really felt them !! Its mesmerizing to see how they converge.

[BipolarGrowth]

1 hour ago, Rohit Kuna said:

Talking about states of reality I recently visualized them as these infinite multidimensional (though here it is in 2D) array of dots. We are feeling and experiencing only those states which we are focusing on in the now moment ( that which are blinking ). But all these realities exist simultaneously together. Its like each and every dot is heavily interconnected with each other. Each n every dot contains in itself all its possible probability states from which it is derived and also all states that it would further lead to. We create new reality every moment (now those states blink i.e. come into our experience) ! 

This is good, but the only adjustment I would make is to say that what exists is here and now. This can potentially change in any way, but this does not mean everything exists simultaneously. At least that’s how I see it 

[Rohit Kuna]

1 hour ago, BipolarGrowth said:

This is good, but the only adjustment I would make is to say that what exists is here and now. This can potentially change in any way, but this does not mean everything exists simultaneously. At least that’s how I see it 

@BipolarGrowth

Note: 
By 'exists' I mean all the possibilities that have the potential of manifestation but not yet manifested.

By 'bringing into your experience/focus' I mean that which you manifest.

 

By "everything exists simultaneously", I mean...

Think it as of "every new possibility" that we could think of or invent or create is in the now moment. So it still doesn't take off the power of creating a new one, because if you create (manifest) something new it still exists in the NOW MOMENT with all other possibilities. It's just that you're not manifesting other possibilities.

You said it !! the only thing that exists is here and now. Then it means everything must exist simultaneously in the NOW MOMENT (but it's your choice what you bring into manifestation and what not).

The point here is that "It's the question of manifestation"

Note: 
By 'exists' I mean all the possibilities that have the potential of manifestation but not yet manifested.

By 'bringing into your experience/focus' I mean that which you manifest.

I need to be careful while using words !! ? I have used words in a different context. Now read it again with context of words 'exists' n 'experience/manifestation' in mind.

Anyways I'm still contemplating on this perspective, it might need some adjustments or completely transform into something else. Btw thanks for your opinion !!

[BipolarGrowth]

@Rohit Kuna I get all of that. I was trying to explain that I understand the potential for all possible manifestations exists within the present moment, but I was saying that the word “exist” to me is talking about what is actually present. The potential for all other manifestations exists right now, but the current manifestations which you witness right now in the present moment are all that there is beyond just potential. Existence is always in the present. Everything in the present is all that exists. This doesn’t mean the potential for anything else isn’t still held in the present. 
 

I’m pretty sure you get what I’m talking about based on your response. The language around this can just be tricky. I was mainly just trying to get you to use the word exist in a more technical way. Nothing’s wrong really with your insights at all. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by BipolarGrowth

[Rohit Kuna]

@BipolarGrowth  Yeah I should have tried to frame it differently. Use the word 'exists' more technically. But you got it "There is infinite potential of creation in the NOW MOMENT" this was what I wanted to clarify, because this was the key insight. Those arrows in the diagram are never ending , they continue infinitely forever leading to new possibilities !! This is how I visualised.

 

This would be more accurate diagram:

Edited May 9, 2021 by Rohit Kuna