Why do spiritualists have a disdain for psychological theory and concepts?

[mandyjw]

Unless you're in the right emotional place, you will read the spiritualist view as gaslighting, or interpret it as that you are a personal failure. I think that's why it's appealing to paint others as narcissists or realize why we attract them, because we want to let go of the personal failure perspective. However, shame and blame are co-created and co-dependent. There aren't two people, there is the movement of thought of shame and blame, one creates the other. Seeing this gives the person seeking healing an empowerment that psychology doesn't often offer. So while it feels better to blame someone than to feel shame, in order to move beyond blame, we have to step out of the psychological theory. 

The real magic of healing lies beyond that. That's why putting your emotions and the desire to heal and feel better first, above the story and theory is the TRUE non-avoidance, while thought says "that's avoiding!" it's actually holding the story in place and hindering the incredible potential of healing that is there.

There's nothing wrong with psychology, but it gets much, much better. There's a far more profound potential for healing available than what it has to offer. But if it's truly, truly helping and making you feel better for now, don't listen to anything anyone else says. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by mandyjw

[Preety_India]

@mandyjw notice that what you're perceiving as shame and blame could very well be your own cognitive bias. 

You think that it is blaming. 

I think of it as illuminating a person to their objective nature, making them aware of their flaws and in turn helping them to work on them. 

Now label can be taken as a way of shaming. 

Conversely a label can also be considered as a way of easily assimilating and assigning a bunch of information which the person can absorb under that label, rather than simply focusing on the label and taking offense. 

Both are perspectival. 

 

[4201]

1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

@Carl-Richard If you think it's a relative truth, what's your argument for it?

Should I simply take your word for it?

It's relative to a person who is under some kind of condition or mental illness. There is no psychology without the psychological subject, it's relative to it.

It's also relative to society, as there would be no mental illness if you had no standard of a "healthy person" to compare yourself to.

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by 4201

[Carl-Richard]

Btw, a good way to notice the language gamey nature of psychology is to open up a book on personality disorders and see how often the author refers to the problems of so-called artificial comorbidity, overlapping diagnostic criteria and other grey areas.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Preety_India]

@4201 isn't relativity in itself an absolute concept?

Do you expect society to be perfect?

Are relative truths bad truths?

 

[mandyjw]

 

20 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Both are perspectival. 

If you're interested in what's beyond the perspectival then what other approach is there than going beyond psychology? 

[4201]

7 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

@4201 isn't relativity in itself an absolute concept?

There is no such thing as an absolute concept, the absolute isn't a concept. The absolute is your present experience, what you see, feel, touch, hear etc. If you make a concept out of the absolute, it's relative to the one experiencing it.

7 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Do you expect society to be perfect?

I have no such expectations, all I'm saying is that the concept of society is implied in psychology. Without society there can be no psychology.

7 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

Are relative truths bad truths?

Judging them as good or bad is not relevant. But they are as true as the relative assumptions you make. 1 + 1 = 2 is true but it's only true if addition means what it means and = means what it means. We can say 1 + 1 = 2 is a "true statement" relative to the concept of addition and equation.

Is the idea that you are a psychological being subject to mental illnesses true? (As assumed by psychology) Can you "have" mental illnesses? Those are things psychology assume that "yes you can get those" but they might not be true. Up to you to verify if that's actually the case.

Edited May 7, 2021 by 4201

[Preety_India]

9 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

 

If you're interested in what's beyond the perspectival then what other approach is there than going beyond psychology? 

That's the point I'm trying to make. 

It's not about going beyond. 

it's about being grounded exactly where you stand and where you are and assimilating and integrating both psychology and spirituality and arriving at an amalgamation rather than treating either of them as mutually exclusive 

 

[Preety_India]

Leo is a healthy balance since he brings a bit of objectivity to spirituality, not the way Indian spiritualists tend to do. 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Preety_India

[Preety_India]

Need to log out now. Will be back in 1 hour. 

 

[4201]

24 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

That's the point I'm trying to make. 

It's not about going beyond. 

it's about being grounded exactly where you stand and where you are and assimilating and integrating both psychology and spirituality and arriving at an amalgamation rather than treating either of them as mutually exclusive 

That sounds like a good plan, there's no reason to hesitate, go for it! Nobody here is opposing you mixing spiritual work with psychological work. We are all at different stages however and you can't just force other people to do what is best at your stage.

What we are saying is eventually you will outgrow the limitations of psychology and go beyond it. Is this true or are we just bullshitters saying this out of laziness to avoid doing psychology? The only way to find out is to do the work.

For the time however, all the reasons are good to master psychology and use it to become a better version of yourself. It will 100% have a positive effect on your life, all we are saying is that eventually you'll come to the end of it and you'll have to use something else to keep bettering yourself.

[Preety_India]

16 minutes ago, 4201 said:

That sounds like a good plan, there's no reason to hesitate, go for it! Nobody here is opposing you mixing spiritual work with psychological work. We are all at different stages however and you can't just force other people to do what is best at your stage.

What we are saying is eventually you will outgrow the limitations of psychology and go beyond it. Is this true or are we just bullshitters saying this out of laziness to avoid doing psychology? The only way to find out is to do the work.

For the time however, all the reasons are good to master psychology and use it to become a better version of yourself. It will 100% have a positive effect on your life, all we are saying is that eventually you'll come to the end of it and you'll have to use something else to keep bettering yourself.

I'm already tend to do that in my life. My work is a reflection of it. 

I believe in mastery. 

I wasn't forcing anyone to follow my path or work. 

Simply pointing out the hindrances that can exist and sharing my overall sentiment and perspective on the subject. 

I really don't think psychology is something you outgrow. I see it as a useful permanent tool that helps millions of people worldwide. 

Bettering oneself is the end game. Spirituality definitely helps, in fact my core area from the start was/is spirituality. But I can keep using both to better myself, why not. 

I don't think that I'll ever outgrow psychology because it's such a massive field with tremendous outstanding potential, yet to be discovered. 

The only reason we might feel that it's limited or that we have outgrown it is probably because it has been a bit stagnant for a while and growth is pretty slow in that field so it seems like you came to the horizon and the end of it. However it is still growing, although at a slow pace and it will never have a true end, only a superficial end most likely. 

The human mind itself is a very complex phenomenon and much is left to be known and figured. And the tools that are required to study this  are equally complex and limited in their scope. This does not mean that future growth won't be possible. Possibilities are limitless if you want to be positive. 

 

[4201]

14 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I'm already tend to do that in my life. My work is a reflection of it. 

I believe in mastery. 

I wasn't forcing anyone to follow my path or work. 

Simply pointing out the hindrances that can exist and sharing my overall sentiment and perspective on the subject. 

I really don't think psychology is something you outgrow. I see it as a useful permanent tool that helps millions of people worldwide. 

Bettering oneself is the end game. Spirituality definitely helps, in fact my core area from the start was/is spirituality. But I can keep using both to better myself, why not. 

I don't think that I'll ever outgrow psychology because it's such a massive field with tremendous outstanding potential, yet to be discovered. 

The only reason we might feel that it's limited or that we have outgrown it is probably because it has been a bit stagnant for a while and growth is pretty slow in that field so it seems like you came to the horizon and the end of it. However it is still growing, although at a slow pace and it will never have a true end, only a superficial end most likely. 

The human mind itself is a very complex phenomenon and much is left to be known and figured. And the tools that are required to study this  are equally complex and limited in their scope. This does not mean that future growth won't be possible. Possibilities are limitless if you want to be positive. 

It's easy to look down on something you transcended. Just like Leo bashing Logic or rationality. It doesn't mean to be illogic or irrational, it just means there's something beyond it (at least according to him, we don't have to believe him! )

But you are not human, you are god. Once you realize you are god you don't need to study the human psyche anymore. I'm not saying you do anything with this information. But this is how people "outgrow" psychology. Again, am I a bullshitter? You can only do the work for yourself.

[Lyubov]

cause their self deception mechanisms and spiritual ego have tricked them into thinking spiritual awakening is knowing something greater than an antithesis they assigned themselves (psychology) when in fact all they have had is spiritual awakening and maybe are only contributing a slight alternative to a problem that is far more complex than what they are attempting to reduce it down to. that, and they can see there is a ton of unneeded BS in the field of psychology having taken a general wider perspective. my criticism cuts both ways when a guru tries to talk up that they can help people more than a psychologist. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Lyubov

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, Lyubov said:

cause their self deception mechanisms and spiritual ego have tricked them into thinking spiritual awakening is knowing something greater or having embodied actual wisdom when in fact all they have had is spiritual awakening and maybe are only contributing a slight alternative to a problem that is far more complex than what they are attempting to reduce it down to. that, and they can see there is a ton of unneeded BS in the field of psychology. 

Omg you hit the proverbial nail on the head. 

I couldn't have said better. 

Thanks. 

 

[mandyjw]

8 hours ago, Preety_India said:

I really don't think psychology is something you outgrow. I see it as a useful permanent tool that helps millions of people worldwide. 

Bettering oneself is the end game.

Bettering oneself is a never ending game. There's always a better, or another category to better. The "end game" is complete dissolution of the mind, if you've watched a loved one die a natural death you know that their mind functions degraded and faded, but what they really are shone brighter and brighter and brighter. There's nothing permanent about our psychology. We're all gonna die someday. I love psychology, I love my dog, or I love the skills I have, but I know that I am going to lose these things, and what I really am is beyond these things and that what's real can never be lost. Knowing this does not diminish my enjoyment of the impermanent, it enhances it.

 

[Preety_India]

@Nahm I need to know your zodiac sign. Care to tell?

You're too moochy moochy and loving. (moochy is a slang for lovey dovey)

 

[mandyjw]

I love the term spiritualist. This is what it really means though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism#:~:text=Spiritualism is a religious movement,which spirits continue to evolve.

The Victorian era was AWESOME. Also terrible, cause everyone died from everything all the time, but spiritually open-wise and aesthetically AWESOME. 

[Preety_India]

@dflores321 @Nahm I need to know your zodiac sign. Care to tell?

You're too moochy moochy and loving. (moochy is a slang for lovey dovey)

Mine is pisces

[Preety_India]

@dflores321 @Nahm 

Yes sagittarius aren't loving. I'm aware. 

Sagittarius is a fire sign.