Why do spiritualists have a disdain for psychological theory and concepts?

[Preety_India]

I understand practicing spirituality involves application of higher spiritual insights. 

But I've observed that core psychological concepts such as personality disorders, narcissism and related human psyche patterns and behaviors are looked down on and even dismissed in most spiritual societies and circles. 

I'll give you an example to illustrate this.  ☛  let's see that I'm facing an issue with someone who suffers bipolar disorder or NPD and if I talk about it to a spiritualist, trying to find a solution, first off the language of the spiritualist is generally very wishy washy and the answer would be along the lines of something like "this is ☛ your ego, it's creating these labels. There is no narcissist. Your ego created it for separation. Love the narcissist. Embrace them. Don't label. There are no labels. "

Do you see the problem here?

I don't consider this as an evolved matured perspective. If it all it looks bland,  lacking in subtlety and comprehension of deeper elements at play. You see that psychologists have worked hard for centuries and developed many tests to understand and differentiate functional and destructive behaviors. They weren't crazy. This is objective science based on observable characteristics and such definitions and labels help in finding appropriate ways of tackling complex problems. 

So for example for the above scenario, if I were to approach a psychologist, they would carefully study the case, might even employ certain tests to arrive at conclusions and diagnoses and recommend appropriate and time tested solutions to deal with the problem. 

 

Isn't psychology a vital part of understanding human behavior?this is especially observed in Eastern spirituality where even a mention of core of psychology concepts doesn't exist. Every problem is only looked at from a spiritual angle and psychological understanding is completely missing  

On the other hand, a similar phenomenon is observed with psychologists who fail to grasp spiritual issues and concepts and operate primarily from a regurgitated psychological standpoint, they get too clinical about things and completely misread cues that might indicate signs of spiritual void or spiritual struggle in the client. 

I don't think that spirituality and psychology at their base are in any way in conflict with each other and as such in my opinion, all differences and conflicts are merely perceived to exist. 

If I had to choose a therapist it would have to be someone who at least has a cursory understanding of key spiritual insights and concepts and ties them into their subject of psychological study and inference and not only helps diagnose psychological conditions but also offers spiritual advice as a side therapy. I would consider it more wholesome and call it holistic psychology. 

Now look above at Leo's logo bar and you see actualization, philosophy, psychology and spirituality all put together. 

I believe that true actualization can only happen when you integrate all schools of thought. 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Preety_India

[Megan Alecia]

Right Freud, Sadhguru ain't buying your superego and mommy issues.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Megan Alecia

[Bojan V]

@Preety_India Long time ago, when i started my spiritual journey, there was one magazine for spiritual growth here in Slovenia. And in it one clinical psychologist and psychotherapist wrote many articles about psycho-spiritual dilemas on the spiritual journey. His writings about spirituality was so good, that i never came accros anything like it in any other places.

Many times he mentioned how very important it is to face and embrace the repressed unconscious aspects of ourselves and to overcome the alienations of the socialization process. He and some other writers in that magazine introduced us, the readers, with the mystics of old times.

The european mystics described their spiritual journey and every one of them experienced something called "the purification". And this "purification" is nothing else then the process of coming out of our shadow material on the surface to be seen and to be healed. So even do the seekers and mystics of old ages didn't have the knowledge of human psychodynamics, becose at that times that type of knowledge didn't exist, they still went through the same process of confronting their "demons", like we all do one way or another. So in some way they did have some kind of knowledge of psychology, but not as advanced as we have today.

In the examples you gave above it is ilustrated a shallow american approach toward spirituality. But sooner or later every spiritual aspirant will have to deal with some psychological issues and then they will be very willing to learn more about psychology.

 

[Shin]

Psychology is amazing, but a lot of practitioners don't come from direct experience, and in that sense it sucks, cause practitioners only use concepts to deal with any kind of psychological ailment (from benign to life threatening).

So there is good criticisms to make towards psychology, but also, dismissing it and thinking you know everything because you have some direct experience (even if you're enlightened) is also equally a joke, cause you can't possibly have directly experienced all the variations of traumas one can have.

Shinzen young had to go to a shrink even after enlightenment for example, so the spiritual teachers who think that psychology is useless are very tight up in their asses and ego
 

If we learned children basic CBT methods (so no need to make everyone "spiritual"), the world would be a very different places for example.
We treat people to feel good only after they felt like shit to an extreme degree, instead of directly teach ourselves how to live happily.

Stage orange is very obvious in their education system, it's all about learning concepts and how to make you a specialist in a very narrow domain:

• it is not about how to deal with your emotions
• it is not about how to relate to other people
• it is not about how to have a good sex life
• it is not about how to be a good father or mother
• it is not about understanding the opposite sex and the dynamic between the sex
• It is not about how to find your passion
• etc etc etc.

Stage orange education isn't about life !

lol

Edited May 6, 2021 by Shin

[WonderSeeker]

The problem here is that both spiritual and psychological approaches are, in a sense, right.

However, each approach is right in a different way. If we take development into account (i.e., psychology), then we can look at a person and see where they are at. Ken Wilber once said "Spirituality is the highest level of any developmental line." If that's true, then spirituality will only work for those people who have developed to a point where they are ready for it. Until then, psychological approaches may be most appropriate. Once a healthy sense of self has been developed, the self can be transcended. At least, I believe that's how it works for most people. 

@Preety_India Ever heard of the phrase "spiritual bypassing"?

[Preety_India]

@WonderSeeker  I wasn't really talking about spiritual bypassing. 

I'm saying that both approaches can go hand in hand and be completely integrated to achieve the best outcome 

I'm not saying using spiritual techniques to get escape or relief from actualization work, but understanding that when someone has a problem they could even have spiritual aspects or reasons contributing to it as well as psychological aspects contributing to it. It's important to address both on an equal level.. 

Being stuck in either paradigm without switching to the other paradigm is very short sighted and dogmatic and insufficient. 

I'd say not comprehensive enough.. 

 

[Tim R]

@Preety_India Totally agree with you, this weird form of "spiritualism" where people simply project their ideas on already existing ones and recontextualize them into this narrative consisting of ideas from spirituality. 

5 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I'm saying that both approaches can go hand in hand and be completely integrated to achieve the best outcome 

Spot on. The philosopher/spiritual seeker should be thankful for lessons from Jung, Adler and Freud, and in order to establish a relationship that can thrive of reciprocity, the psychologist should become more aware of lessons learned from philosophy and spirituality. 

[Preety_India]

@Tim R yes

 

 

 

[WonderSeeker]

1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

It's important to address both on an equal level.. 

True, the more lenses you look at an issue from, the better the assessment will be. You'll know which levers to pull to get a better outcome. 

[Moksha]

I appreciate my education in psychology. It has helped me understand the conditioning and deconditioning of the mind. The Vedas speak to the dangers of attachment, and the peace of realizing equanimity. It all converges for me. Ultimately, that is what awakening is all about. It is the realization that you are not your conditioned mind, and that it is possible to dissolve the attachments that create the compulsions which are the source of your suffering.

Conceptual understanding of conditioning is helpful, but only when you are ready to dive deeper into the essence of who you are, beyond what most psychological disciplines acknowledge. There is a branch, called spiritual psychology, which is promising. Check out Steve Taylor. He has studied, from a scientific perspective, the awakening process. Interesting stuff, but as with every other theory/teaching/discovery, still just a pointer. The secret is to let go of concepts entirely, and open your eyes to being.

[Nahm]

Spirituality is the pursuit of what is actual and or true. The actuality of psychology is that none of it is true, including “true actualization”. It’s an appearance. When believed, it’s content so to speak, is illusory. A “spiritualist” would regard this as thought attachment, and recognize there is no such thing as “a spiritualist”. 

There is no thinker, let alone a narcissist. The wind blows, yet there is no blower. 

[Preety_India]

13 minutes ago, Nahm said:

The actuality of psychology is that none of it is true,

This was basically the gist of the entire thread and what I think of as spiritual neurosis. 

That statement was a prime example. 

Try having some appreciation for the field of psychology. 

Maybe such rhetoric adds to the well known  phenomenon called spiritual ego?

 

 

[Preety_India]

@Nahm  you're what the whole thread is based on, not trying to offend, only criticizing. 

I had you in my mind while creating the thread. Just being plain and direct about it. So please don't take offense. 

 

much of your statements around the forum prompted me to think this way and question everything you think. 

 

[Carl-Richard]

18 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

This was basically the gist of the entire thread and what I think of as spiritual neurosis. 

That statement was a prime example. 

Try having some appreciation for the field of psychology. 

Maybe such rhetoric adds to the well known  phenomenon called spiritual ego?

It's not true in the same sense that Spanish isn't true. It's a language. 

This is essentially the relative/absolute conflation. Psychology deals with relative truths. When you speak the language and other people can understand you (it "makes sense"), that's relative truth. Spirituality deals with the Absolute. It's true regardless of which language you speak.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Preety_India]

@Carl-Richard If you think it's a relative truth, what's your argument for it?

Should I simply take your word for it?

 

[Carl-Richard]

14 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

@Carl-Richard If you think it's a relative truth, what's your argument for it?

Should I simply take your word for it?

Just look at how many languages there are. Which one is the best one? See how it's kinda the wrong question?  

When you choose a language, you're given certain rules that you must follow in order to make sense (grammar, logic). However, what you're saying only makes sense relative those rules (Spanish only makes sense to Spanish speakers). The meaning is confined within that framework. That is what is meant by relative truth. It's true relative to that framework.

Psychology isn't exactly a language by any strict definition (I'm using it as an analogy), but it's a language game: it uses symbols and rules for sorting them together. Also, all of this happens through the conceptual thoughts of humans. However, spirituality is about going beyond thought, concepts, symbols, rules, language, relativity; to discover what is true independent of anything else (not relatively true but absolutely true).

So there is no problem with doing psychology while being spiritual (I'm in fact a psychology student). But just know that when spiritual people speak about "Truth", they mean something else than what you can learn conceptually (any "-ology"). It must at the end of the day be learned experientially. Also, being aware of the fact that psychology is a language game makes you a much more sober psychologist.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

Spirituality is the pursuit of what is actual and or true. The actuality of psychology is that none of it is true, including “true actualization”. It’s an appearance. When believed, it’s content so to speak, is illusory. A “spiritualist” would regard this as thought attachment, and recognize there is no such thing as “a spiritualist”. 

There is no thinker, let alone a narcissist. The wind blows, yet there is no blower. 

I finally understand.

Your presence is such a gift. Thank you (for everything)

[Preety_India]

@dflores321 I understand what youre saying. 

But identification of a certain issue is the first step toward healing it. 

And the healing generally happens with drugs and therapy specifically tailored for it. 

I don't think spiritual platitudes and bypassing will help much in that regard, something that people who keep spewing it all the time might need to realize. 

[Nahm]

@Preety_India

You are so beautiful and easy to love, and I appreciate you. 

@RendHeaven

Thank you for everything! ?? 

[Preety_India]

@dflores321 if he is taking therapy and adjusting well, I not only see him as happy but also a survivor and winner. 

Haha, we look at the same thing very differently. 

But you made some great points.