Leo does Right or wrong exist? What if I did something wrong?

[machiavelli]

Hello, I was wondering about morality. Is right or wrong human construction? We are taught what to do , how to behave in society, How to think , How to treat other people since birth. But do you really think if I did something wrong than Karma will punish me?

How is this reality even working? If everything equates to love. Everything is love. Then how reality even do justice?

Have you ever wondered?

I had been studying NDE's since a long time. And they also shows how our actions affect others . For example 40% of Nde'rs Experienced Life Review after their death. It was shown on panoramic screen every thing they did since birth , their words , their actions and how it affect others. It was shown from both the point of view of experiencer and other person at the same time. Like he reviews his past life on earth with everybody's perspective by becoming everybody at the same time. This was accompanied by the white light which runs all review infront of him. It is most painful experience of the NDE. 

Now you teach that every thing is love. Even if you rape or muder someone it is still love. Even if you did something wrong it is love.

Then why their is soo difference in your teaching and one NDE shows after death of the person ?

I am confused here. How can I liberate myself? If I even dont know if karmic justice exist or not.

Just think for a second . If everything is love and their is no evil then how the heck is this reality running?

[WonderSeeker]

49 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

But do you really think if I did something wrong than Karma will punish me?

What counts as 'wrong' and as 'Karma' are up to you. Though if you want to survive, you have to play the same game that the rest of society is playing. You can either do this unconsciously, by believing that 'wrong' and 'Karma' exist. Or you can do this consciously, by understanding that 'wrong' is relative and 'Karma' is a false proof of some divine fate. And if you do this consciously, you have the choice to be good or not. Choose wisely!

50 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

How is this reality even working?

It just is. Ever taken LSD? The answer is implicit.

55 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

I am confused here. How can I liberate myself?

First, accept your confusion. There's going to need to be a lot of that if you want answers. Next, take action. Meditate, contemplate, etc. Be prepared to suffer for the truth.

[The0Self]

1 hour ago, machiavelli said:

How can I liberate myself? If I even dont know if karmic justice exist or not.

"You" can't, I am real is a false claim. It doesn't exist. Nobody judges nor cares about anything -- ultimate freedom.

If you want a better experience, you can try meditation, inquiry, psychedelics, pickup, cooking, anything. In this story I had success in obtaining powerful but temporary happiness with witnessing and self-inquiry, psychedelics, sex, etc.

Time seems to be one of the last illusions to go, so If you want to do something that will get a supposedly thinner or more exalted experience, maybe try end of time teachings like from Rob Burbea, etc. No reason why I'm presenting that. There's nothing else.

Edited May 5, 2021 by The0Self

[vladorion]

Karmic justice is just you punishing yourself because you feel guilty. The more guilt you have, the worse your karma.

Edited May 5, 2021 by vladorion

[The0Self]

1 minute ago, vladorion said:

Karmic justice is just you punishing yourself because you feel guilty. The more guilt you have, the worse your karma.

Nobody has guilt, or a self...

But yeah what you say does appear somewhat true -- it's not ultimately true, nothing is

[WelcometoReality]

@machiavelli What is is and thought puts the labels good and bad on parts of it which causes separation. Grasping the good and pushing away the bad.

Liberation is seeing through the illusion that the thoughts create.

[Forestluv]

On 5/5/2021 at 11:21 AM, machiavelli said:

Is right or wrong human construction?

A simple experiment: remove the human construction and see what happens. For example, is there right and wrong from the perspective of a rock?

[Agoy]

we have to create our own notions of what's right and wrong to navigate our survival as effectively as possible

human evolution is gradually figuring out ways to create better systems of navigation to improve the overall quality of life on both an individual + collective level

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Regan

[machiavelli]

@Regan That means we we can do anything? It doesnt matter to God? Why would God love someone murdering other?

[The0Self]

@machiavelli It doesn't ultimately matter to God, since God is murder, love, rape, community service, aid, strife, peace, and everything else. Ultimately nothing matters. How could it? Who, outside of all there is, could it possibly matter to?

This of course means that even "things mattering" doesn't matter / is not denied. There is just ultimate liberation. Nonduality cares not, but also judges not.

Edited May 7, 2021 by The0Self

[machiavelli]

@The0Self What do you mean when you say god is murder, Love, Rape , Peace etc ? Is god is imagining when anyone gets rapes or he himself do it? Whats the difference ? Ellaborate please I am confused when leo says Self imagines everything. 

[Jonty]

@machiavelli

On 07/05/2021 at 5:54 PM, machiavelli said:

@The0Self What do you mean when you say god is murder, Love, Rape , Peace etc ? Is god is imagining when anyone gets rapes or he himself do it? Whats the difference ? Ellaborate please I am confused when leo says Self imagines everything. 

Instead of using the word "God", try using the word "existence". It might make it easier to grasp. So, peace exists, love exists etc. There isn't anything that doesn't exist. Existence is all there is. 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Jonty

[Jonty]

@machiavelli

On 05/05/2021 at 4:21 PM, machiavelli said:

Hello, I was wondering about morality. Is right or wrong human construction? We are taught what to do , how to behave in society, How to think , How to treat other people since birth. But do you really think if I did something wrong than Karma will punish me?

How is this reality even working? If everything equates to love. Everything is love. Then how reality even do justice?

Have you ever wondered?

I had been studying NDE's since a long time. And they also shows how our actions affect others . For example 40% of Nde'rs Experienced Life Review after their death. It was shown on panoramic screen every thing they did since birth , their words , their actions and how it affect others. It was shown from both the point of view of experiencer and other person at the same time. Like he reviews his past life on earth with everybody's perspective by becoming everybody at the same time. This was accompanied by the white light which runs all review infront of him. It is most painful experience of the NDE. 

Now you teach that every thing is love. Even if you rape or muder someone it is still love. Even if you did something wrong it is love.

Then why their is soo difference in your teaching and one NDE shows after death of the person ?

I am confused here. How can I liberate myself? If I even dont know if karmic justice exist or not.

Just think for a second . If everything is love and their is no evil then how the heck is this reality running?

I live in the UK where, like most countries, murder is illegal no matter what the circumstances. In France there is something called a "Crime Of Passion" whereby leniancy is shown to the perpetrator of a murder if it was carried out as a result of it fitting into this category. For example, a woman may return home to find her partner in bed with someone else and in a fit of rage, kills them. Who's right? British law or French law? 

Right and wrong come down to our personal interpretations. I might follow a particular political party to someone else, I might feel that Christianity is the one and only religion, I might believe that we should bring back the death penalty in the UK. There isn't a "right" answer. It's all relative. 

Hitler actually believed he was doing the right thing by carrying out the appalling acts in WW2. We had a serial killer here in the UK who believed he was doing the right thing by killing prostitutes as he said that God had told him to do it. We do things because "we" believe they're right. Our idea of bad or evil is anything that goes against our agenda. 

Ironically, even if we set out to do something wrong we would be doing it because we believed it was right! ??

Edited May 10, 2021 by Jonty

[Shin]

Quote

@machiavelli   What do you mean when you say god is murder, Love, Rape , Peace etc ? Is god is imagining when anyone gets rapes or he himself do it? Whats the difference ? Ellaborate please I am confused when leo says Self imagines everything. 

He means God is a dream machine, and it imagines everything that is happening, including all the humans, animals, plants, planets, galaxies, universes, multiverses, realities (=dreams) and the interactions between them.

As an analogy, in a dream, you're imagining everything, even your own body/mind in it, and everything you experience is you quite literally.

There is only God, nothing else exists except God, and God right now is imagining being an individual entity named Machiaveli talking on a forum with other entities.

God is not a person or an entity, it's everything and nothing at the same time.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Shin

[Blackhawk]

It's not that difficult.

Whatever causes suffering to someone is wrong/evil.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Blackhawk

[trenton]

@machiavelli I will elaborate on the notion of doing wrong.

First, if you wonder how it is possible to do wrong, then you will see that this is relative to a goal.

First lets suppose I build a phone. When I try to use the phone it does not work.  If the goal is to build a functioning phone, then you would say I did it wrong.  If my goal is just to build a phone even if it does not work, then I did just fine.  If my goal were to build a wheelbarrow, then you would be confused.

Of course these goals are something we imagine and then act out.  In this example of building a phone, it demonstrates that right and wrong in this context is relative.

In the case of morality, right and wrong are relative to a goal.

21 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

It's not that difficult.

Whatever causes suffering to someone is wrong/evil.

This is a very common sense of morality.  In a sense Blackhawk is right in his actions if he saves you from a rapist.  In a sense he is also wrong if he is absolutistic.  For example, punching a rapist in the face causes someone suffering.  In a sense he would have done the wrong thing.  If the goal is to save you, then you could say he did the right thing from a certain point of view.

The common goals in human morality are survival and reducing suffering.  This can easily be demonstrated to be a mental construction if you consider animals rights.  Many humans argue that animals are less valuable than humans because of our rationality.  This is arbitrary just like saying an embryo is more valuable than a blastocyst.  The reason we make these sorts of arguments of value is to serve our survival.  If our goal is to ensure the survival of humanity then we are right to use factory farming.  If our goal is animal rights then we are wrong to use factory farming.  Some argue that humans are not actually more valuable than animals, resulting in two different moralities.  This should easily demonstrate that morality is an imaginary construction relative to your goal.

On the topic of value, if you ever argue that one thing is more valuable than another thing,  then remember money.  The only reason money is valuable is because our society acts like it is valuable.  We don't have to meet the gold standard for our society to function.  Meanwhile, money is only valuable to certain countries in cases like the UK.  This is why value is subjective, including moral values.

This should clarify morality.  There is actually no such thing as "doing wrong." This is something we imagine along with our goals.  Think about it.  If there were no goals inherent to existence, then literally how could you " do wrong? "  you would just do.

I hope it helps.

[Blackhawk]

@trenton You should do whatever causes the least amount of total suffering for everyone.

So if I would hurt the guy a bit by punching him in the face (for example suffering level 15), and that saves the woman from suffering level 95, then I do the right thing if I punch the guy in the face. It's all about the math. Simply just calculate.

[trenton]

@Blackhawk do you consider murder level 100?  By this logic you would kill one person to stop them from killing two people.  At the same time murdering one person to prevent them from murdering one other person would be equal in terms of suffering.

I am not clear how this logic applies to animals.  How many animals equal one human in terms of murder?  Another hard situation comes from people who like pain and suffering (believe it or not).  In this way suffering itself is not an inherent evil.

If you struggle to deconstruct morality, I have a method.  It comes from self observation until you discover where good and evil comes from.  You appear to believe that evil is created in the world outside of you.  In my self observation I discovered that good and evil is something I create through imagining it. 

One way to create evil is by imagining moral values against suffering.  If you did not imagine that it is good to reduce suffering, evil would not exist for you.  So long as we imagine moral values, that which contradicts our goals will be labeled evil.  This includes life.  If we did not imagine life to be an inherent good, then death would not be something bad, therefore murder would not actually be wrong.

Morality can be a difficult illusion for people to see through and you may feel threatened when you deconstruct it.  If people get pushed too far they can have certain reactions.  Notice if you feel heat in your body, or become defensive and prone to rationalizations and insults.  This is a fight or flight response.  It reveals how emotionally attached we are to our sense of reality.  If you make a lot of self observations like these, you will let go of morality.  Of course morality is still useful for serving our survival, but evil is not something out there, it is in you. 

By letting go of morality, we cease to create evil through our imaginary values and ideologies.

I hope it helps.

[Breakingthewall]

there are behaviors that strengthen the ego, and others that weaken it. the selfish, evil and sadistic make your ego heavier. With a heavier ego, you will behave more that way, entering a circle in which you will be separated, unhappy and fearful, until you reach hellish levels. I would call that "bad". If your behavior is disinterested, integral, clean, your ego will weaken, with which you will be happier, intelligent, open. I would call it "good"

[Shin]

Using the words "wrong/evil" is what create the wrong/evil in our mind, and by ricochet in the world.

Better not think like this if you want to feel at peace and not create evil.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Shin