Lao Tzu didn't care for meditation?

[tatsumaru]

I just found this Lao Tzu quote and was wondering what you thought about it: “Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear”- Lao Tzu.

I also found information about other highly realized people who were against meditation. "Hui Neng reportedly scolded his monks for spending too much time sitting in meditation….He said that meditation is unnecessary, and warned that such practice can easily become a narcotic. Many Western meditators are so intoxicated by their practice that they see themselves as loftier to those who don’t formally meditate, like drug addicts see themselves as superior to non-users."

Additionally at the highest level of Buddhism (Vajrayana) there are very few mentions of meditation and most practitioners are occupied with something called non-meditation which although has a dumb name is actually a specific practice that I do not understand.

Is it possible that a bunch of people are overly preoccupied with meditation and clinging to it even though it's time to move on?

[SpiritualAwakening]

a discernment should be made in semantics.

• First we must ask ourselves what meditation actually means?

Meditation is not concentration, these are two very different things. Most people confuse meditation with concentrating on non-movement, but if we watch closely we should be able to see that concentration implies resistance (to accept one thing and deny the other), the resistance of the movement of thought (by concentrating on silence for example).

We can see that meditation requires awareness, if we see that then we must ask ourselves:

• what place does awareness have in meditation?
• and also what does awareness imply?

Awareness implies attention and observation, saying these 3 are in relationship with each other still implies a duality (a separation). If we clearly See this then the next question should be:

• what place does observation have in awareness?
• and what does it lead to?

A complete attention holds no center, which means there is no subject from where this attention arises, if there is a center then this is called concentration. This complete attention from which there is no center leads to complete observation, and out of that observation is born a Total Awareness.

I think Lao Tzu meant that this concentrating which is what most people call 'meditation' makes the mind narrow because by concentrating, the mind cannot become clear. Observation leads to an understanding of what IS because there is no 'meditator' to agree or disagree with whatever arises. the 'meditator' completely dissolves within the act of meditation and therefore becomes the act itself.

Edited May 4, 2021 by SpiritualAwakening

[Thought Art]

Qigong

[Surfingthewave]

@tatsumaru I wonder if he meant don't spend your life on the cushion. 

The Tao Te Ching written by Lao Tzu is more a code to life, a set of important principles that can help you realise life is not about the seeking. 

Meditation can become part of the seeking especially by Westerners as it has been modified by its teachers over thousands of years. 

Like the Tao, there is no non-meditation without meditation. 

You have to use meditation to get to the non-meditation you describe (Nirvana).  Some people can get there directly. 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Surfingthewave

[Consilience]

2 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

Additionally at the highest level of Buddhism (Vajrayana) there are very few mentions of meditation and most practitioners are occupied with something called non-meditation which although has a dumb name is actually a specific practice that I do not understand.

Not sure where you’re getting this information from. Vajrayana has some of the most overly complex meditation methods out there. Practitioners spend time visualizing elaborate deities, remolding their identity through these images to see the fluidity and emptiness of the personal identity. Im not a Buddhist scholar, but I wouldn’t classify this tradition as the “highest” Buddhism if we’re going off of what the Buddha actually taught, based off of the Pali Canon. Meditation and Buddhism are inextricably linked based on this text. 

Overall, I would say one needs to explore this for themselves. Meditation is very likely to help its practitioners suffer less, be happier, understand themselves more deeply, love more openly, appreciate the world, and find a spirit of giving within themselves. Never mind the fact that there are countless reports of meditation being an effective method for full blown enlightenment. 

Someone who’s truly awake will see the wisdom in honoring each individual’s path. Whether that path includes meditation or not is for the individual to decide, but the likelihood of someone reaching enlightenment without spending significant periods of time in some kind of silent, reflective environment is low. 

Practically this means, try meditation or dont. If we do, we can trust gut with whether it resonates. The intelligence beyond our identity will guide us with whether to pivot or go deeper if we have the wisdom to listen. 

On an aside, the ego will do everything in its power to justify NOT sitting down in silence doing nothing. 

[Adamq8]

Actually the ancient greeks and indians where not really proposing that you should blank your mind out in that sort of meditation, almost all of the  platonist/neo platonist  and advaita vedanta and original buddhism was based upon negative theology, or VIA NEGATIVA. 

You could reach the Absolute by recognizing what IT is not.

Same with eckhart and others. 

"My soul IS not this not that"

And the word meditation does not necessarily point to anything.

Like people use breath meditation thinking it can liberate them, not really imo.

It sure can make you peaceful tho.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Adamq8

[The0Self]

Stopped meditation like a week ago and started having more “transcendent stuff happening” ever since ? 

I would say something like “I guess taking breaks works,” but it’s obvious that nothing “works,” because there isn’t something or someone that does something else. It seems I used to think that there was really something called a “next moment.” Even though obviously there’s only what is — it seemed like there was really a life with a future and things really happening that “I need to be there for.” ? ?

This is utterly complete and total liberation. This. There’s nobody to wake up. This is just it. Everything. Nothing matters, and nobody has ever cared or judged.

[Danioover9000]

@The0Self

10 hours ago, The0Self said:

Stopped meditation like a week ago and started having more “transcendent stuff happening” ever since ? 

I would say something like “I guess taking breaks works,” but it’s obvious that nothing “works,” because there isn’t something or someone that does something else. It seems I used to think that there was really something called a “next moment.” Even though obviously there’s only what is — it seemed like there was really a life with a future and things really happening that “I need to be there for.” ? ?

This is utterly complete and total liberation. This. There’s nobody to wake up. This is just it. Everything. Nothing matters, and nobody has ever cared or judged.

   I concur with your insight of taking breaks from meditation. I've taken 6 months off to handle dark shit in my life during the winter and spring, only doing short unformal mindfulness practices a few times a week. As soon as that was handled, I got back to sitting meditation, and oh boy did my concentration and sitting on awareness sky rocketed. I felt super amazing when I finished, a deeper sense of peace than before.

   I might continue throughout summer to mid autumn, take a few months off, resume around spring.

[snowyowl]

On 04/05/2021 at 8:34 PM, tatsumaru said:

Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear”- Lao Tzu.

This reminds of the poetry competition to become the 6th patriarch of Chan Buddhism. The first poem was:

The body is the bodhi tree.
The mind is like a bright mirror's stand.
At all times we must strive to polish it
and must not let dust collect.

- Shenxiu

The second, and winning poem:

Bodhi originally has no tree.
The mirror has no stand.
The Buddha-nature is always clear and pure.
Where is there room for dust?

- Huineng.

So this is basically the age-old debate between gradual and sudden enlightenment. Do we 'get there' gradually by years of meditation to purify our minds until there's no stain of karma left; or gain a sudden insight that we were enlightened all along? It's as vital today as it was in the 7th century, I like to think they're both true.

[tatsumaru]

12 minutes ago, snowyowl said:

So this is basically the age-old debate between gradual and sudden enlightenment.

“Contradictions in perspective among those Seeing the profound do not occur”- Taranatha

According to Taranatha one or all of the debaters are clueless.

P.S.

Shenxiu seems like an idiot. Shambhala says, a warrior never hesitates reflecting light on everything even a pile of shit. A free mind doesn't reject dust or shit.

[snowyowl]

@tatsumaru ha ha let's not turn this into a debate then

I've got some sympathy for Shenxiu, most of us don't have spontaneous awakening like Huineng and Eckhart Tolle, without doing years of hard work. Even the Buddha had to struggle for a time before he got it, perhaps it just depends on your character. 

Edited May 5, 2021 by snowyowl

[Bodhitree]

@tatsumaru Not everyone’s meditation is the same, the word describes a range of different techniques. It is also not appropriate for everyone. Some people walk a different, non-meditative path — its like the story of the rice washer who suddenly became enlightened, and who was later said to have turned rice washing into his practice.

From what I have seen it takes a special talent to truly achieve the peaks of consciousness, and that most people who try only get a few glimpses or insights no matter how much meditating they do. Those glimpses often arrive in periods where they are decompressing, where they have given up their effort, which supports the notion that enlightenment is like relaxing a long-held tension.

[RedLine]

On 5/5/2021 at 6:58 AM, Adamq8 said:

Actually the ancient greeks and indians where not really proposing that you should blank your mind out in that sort of meditation, almost all of the  platonist/neo platonist  and advaita vedanta and original buddhism was based upon negative theology, or VIA NEGATIVA. 

You could reach the Absolute by recognizing what IT is not.

Same with eckhart and others. 

"My soul IS not this not that"

 

And how do you do that out of the cushion? You need to be calm, sit and only pay attention to that exercise.

[Adamq8]

3 minutes ago, RedLine said:

And how do you do that out of the cushion? You need to be calm, sit and only pay attention to that exercise.

Yes i just mean to always blank out the mind is probably not the way to go, but concentration is ofcourse much important. 

But neti neti can be done during the whole day imo.

But in order to do it properly we have to be present.

But the word meditation is a bit misleading cause it can mean 1000 different things/techniques, like if a take a shit and count the holes in the ceiling it is a form of meditation etc ???

But the essence of meditation is i guess pretty much the same throughout 

[RedLine]

8 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

Yes i just mean to always blank out the mind is probably not the way to go, but concentration is ofcourse much important. 

But neti neti can be done during the whole day imo.

But in order to do it properly we have to be present.

But the word meditation is a bit misleading cause it can mean 1000 different things/techniques, like if a take a shit and count the holes in the ceiling it is a form of meditation etc ???

But the essence of meditation is i guess pretty much the same throughout 

You can do neti neti or noting during whole day but if you sit and do only that it is x10 effective

[tatsumaru]

30 minutes ago, RedLine said:

You can do neti neti or noting during whole day but if you sit and do only that it is x10 effective

Really? It's 10x more effective? How did you confirm this?

[RedLine]

56 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

Really? It's 10x more effective? How did you confirm this?

Try by yourself

Do noting in the cushion and then do noting washing the dishes, working, walking, etc and tell me what feels more effective

[Eternal Unity]

Meditation are for buddhists, Taoism is higher ?

[Eternal Unity]

1 minute ago, Tim Ho said:

To me, Taoism is something like this forum

Yeah pretty much

[The0Self]

59 minutes ago, Tim Ho said:

@The0Self I hope my total-awakening would be something like that.  I don't think I'm there yet... not yet.

Well of course, you won't ever "be there." The recognition is that there's nobody to wake up. There's a false claim that someone needs to know something, so it appears someone is trying to know something -- there is neither someone nor something really happening. The aforementioned experience is what appears to happen, but it doesn't actually happen. As long as there's experience it seems like there's something happening. This is liberation for no one. This. There is nothing else.

Edited May 6, 2021 by The0Self