I resonate a lot with Jordan Petersons take on feminism - What am I missing?

[TheDao]

@bejapuskas Why would I let myself and men named the big bad patriarchy and women the good equal feminist. No thank you. In practice they don't free the men, have enough eye too it. I really appreciated the new book of warren how the fatherrole is essential in many ways for boys/children to grow up and how the things fathers do are underappreciated. Feminism with its one sided view did that.

 

As an example rough and tumble play is essential to learn boundaries , learn how to play as a child,  learn that everybody has to have fun or the play ends, create a more intimate bond with father. But this kind of play is not looked on upon positively by a lot of women. Which is one of the reason man can retract from the parenting. And children who havnt learnt to play are less attractive for their peers.

We do agree on that we both want equal rights. If one gender loses, both lose or in a family the whole family loses. We need to have enough focus on all sides.

Edited May 9, 2021 by TheDao

[bejapuskas]

@TheDao  Father role is underappreciated only by some extreme female incels who are butt hurt by men or seriously traumatized. These I do not consider feminists, they sure are sad and have their issues, but they are not fighting for equality of the sexes. Real feminists acknowledge the importance of having a good father figure, as not having ones can create people such as Donald Trump. Patriarchy does not mean that men are bad, it means that there are certain expectations imposed upon men that teach them to be toxic masculine from a very young age and certain privileges that are very appearant in 3rd world countries, less so in the West. 

It is just that you being butt hurt by feminists is much less serious than a woman being physically unable to protect herself from a man who stabs her on a street while people silently watch her die. The same can happen to a man, but that does not mean that fighting for this to happen less to women is wrong.

[TheDao]

28 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

 Father role is underappreciated only by some extreme female incels

@bejapuskasNot true. Feminist dont walk the talk. Dads dont get a lot of free time when having a baby. They don't have the same rights , especially with custody. Its simply not true.  They have a big pressure to do the men role and be the provider or risk being seen as a loser. 

28 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

It is just that you being butt hurt by feminists is much less serious than a woman being physically unable to protect herself from a man who stabs her

You are taking a selective example. Which has lots of media attention, which is acknowlegded. Men are abused in relationships in a big extent too.  Which is not acknowledged , see the shelters.  

Saying men are buthurt for dying in wars, for losing their children, for gettig abused in relationships, for working al their lives shitty jobs just to provide, doesnt sound to respectfull to me.

 

The story that the world is dominated by patriarchy has had a real damaging effect. It was dominated by the need to survive.  Fathers and mothers made sacrifices. Most fathers gave up for filling jobs for paying jobs to make their generations safer. Calling this male privilege's and male domination is so destructive! 

 

From monologue to dialog!

Edited May 9, 2021 by TheDao

[bejapuskas]

@TheDao  You generalizing what feminist means is the same as what your notion of feminist (which I do not really even consider feminist) generalizing what men means. Feminist isn't one thing, there are so many branches. Also all men don't rape and hit their family, right. Same thing. You are doing the same thing you hate about others.

I have always been told by my teachers in schools, when I was a kid and vulnerable, that boys are raped too, I guess I had very good teachers. But I see where you are coming from. Rape is so common these days in men and women both. So talk about that, there is nothing wrong, it cannot be denied that it happens. People who deny that are not fighting for equality, they are not properly feminist. Do you get it? But outside Europe, where you do not live, the situation is much worse for women. And outside Europe means most of the population, do you get it, how privileged you are?

I didn't say you get butt hurt for going to war, you imagined me saying that. I said you get butt hurt by a "feminist" yelling at you. I don't consider that being butt hurt.

I see what you mean. But like the people who are politicians and billionaires, those who make it so that you are a slave of capitalism who needs to go to a 9-5 job, these are mostly men. And again, it might be because of patriarchy and these men might suffer. But like do you see how the female perspective is lacking in leadership?

[Forestluv]

6 hours ago, TheDao said:

@Forestluv What power are you talking about for the average Joe.

I would say I'm a fairly average Joe. I make an average salary and I'm in a mid-level position. I don't have to deal with being sexually harassed at my workplace. If I was, I wouldn't have to worry about my boss firing me if I brought it up. 

Many work cultures are tolerant of men disparaging women. This is slowly changing. 

Of course men have issues as well. I'm not denying that. Yet I would say it's insecure and petty to dismiss how men maltreat women because men have issues too. If women at my work came forward that there is a lot of sexual harrassment at the workplace, it would be insecure/petty for the men respond "Us men have hardships too. Why should we pay attention to sexual harrassment?"

As well, most of the issues females bring up is related to maltreatment from men in higher positions of power. For example, a woman up for promotion is passed over for a less qualified man. Or, male bosses are acting sexually inappropriate. The issues you bring up for men are not due to maltreatment from women. Things like men going to war is not maltreatment from women. Men have the power to send other men to war. 

6 hours ago, TheDao said:

@Forestluv Men learnt from kindergarten to be strong, while the emphasis girls have on each other is to be social. Men learnt to be providers, so they sacrifice long working hours to give their money to the family. Whats the power of the average Joe who has to work long hours as a truckdriver or get disabled by being a garbageman (lot of accidents happen). Where are the women in all those looked down upon jobs? (Which is unfair that garbagamen are looked down upon, garbagemen are essential for society to function). Are you talking about the few procent men that are on the top? Men are the biggest dropouts too. What does the average Joe have to do with this? He feels immense pressure to be strong and breadwinner while making long hours? Of course then if men make al the long hours to live up to the male identity story, they get better in the job and are overrepresented or get paid for more. It is then men who is most stuck in its gender role of being strong, being a provider etc, while feminist have freed the women much more.
 

Again, I'm not saying that men have it easy. You are bringing up valid issues, yet there are multiple dimensions of input. You raise the dimension of power hierarchies. The wealthy have more power than poor people. Poor people have less power and are often exploited in the workplace, the justice system etc. Yes, poor people often have to work crappy jobs in unsafe conditions. Poor men are exploited differently than poor women - yet they are both exploited due to wealth power structures.

Wealth power structures are also an important issue, yet so are gender power structures. The garbage man you mentioned has to deal with issues of wealth inequality, yet he doesn't have to deal with being a female maltreated by men. For example, Joe doesn't have to deal with men sexually harrassing him at work. 

What-aboutism can be relevant, yet it can also be a distraction to deal with an issue at hand. 

 

[Forestluv]

@TheDao You are not seeing my view clearly. I'm not saying that the men don't have significant problems. My view is that both genders have to deal with significant problems due to gender. As well, my view is that both genders have to deal with significant problems due to wealth inequality. 

[StarStruck]

21 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

@StarStruck  Them belittling male rape victims is very horrible, you are right on that, don't stop speaking up for this  But they also want you not to belittle female victims who are raped and murdered all around the world. Isn't it common sense?

That is common sense, and I didn't even dispute that.

 

19 hours ago, SamC said:

 

Here's a challenge for you!@StarStruck

Search for feminism on YouTube and select the most outrages, toxic and man hating rant you can find.

Than watch the video - but most importantly. Watch yourself. Observe you're reaction and when you feel like you want to punch the wall. Breath in to the resistance, hatred and anger.

Notice how angry you get.. and than investigate why those emotions occur.

I did that but I have trouble distinguishing good and bad criticism on feminism.

For example, why can't I be angry at girls who expect me to pay for dates when in my country we get equal pay? If we get equal pay, I think we should share the bad stuff with girls too, not only the good stuff.

[TheDao]

4 hours ago, Jacob Morres said:

that being said, the kernel of truth i feel is that i think it may have its place by raising women's issues and other issues to the surface.

Womens and mens issues should be raised. Men should also start to come up for their rights, its about time.

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura After reading the comments on this thread i think it would be very helpful if you made in the future a video like "Understanding feminism" or something like that. I have tried to find any good videos explaining feminism in a detailed way and especially the systematic nuances that my male biased mind does not pick up on and honestly for feminism it is impossible to find anything worthy. It is either some short video explaining feminism and how much it was needed in the past (doubt anyone here dissagrees with that) or some feminist ted talk that has like 90 percent dislike rate (looks like toxic green to me), basically 0 stage yellow on feminism to properly explain it in a nuanced systemic way. For example "Some more news" youtube channel does for concepts  cancel culture and racism in USA. Also have noticed that A LOT of males in this forum (including myself to some extent) need to better understand feminism. 

Reason why i write to you is because i think you are capable to give a proper stage yellow perspective on it, not a stage green perspective on it. You can talk about it while also explaining its trap and excesses in a way most stage green folks can not.

When i mean feminism i am always talking about feminism TODAY, what it is trying to achieve today. Also i refer always to developed western countries. If we talk about saudi arabia or the west 100 years ago then i do not think much explaining is needed on the importance of feminism. The difficulty is understanding the small systemic nuances that occur today in the west.

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Karmadhi