I resonate a lot with Jordan Petersons take on feminism - What am I missing?

[Jacob Morres]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course men need love too. That's what anti-feminists want.

how is it anti-feminist? it's not anti-feminist to think men need love

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Jacob Morres

[diamondpenguin]

1 hour ago, StarStruck said:

If you live in the west, feminism has done its work, and should be deconstructed. With every year feminism is getting more toxic because it fulfilled it purpose and now it is overcompensating.

Toxic feminity is a huge problem. Men and women earn as much women and women still expect men to pick up the bills. Women get the kids when divorcing. The attitude of some women. I can go on and on about modern day feminism. 

If feminism has reached its purpose in a country, they should switch over to humanism: equality for everybody. 

Even in the most liberal states in the USA feminism hasn't nearly done as much as you think. It is still needed. 

[Derek White]

7 hours ago, Emerald said:

Link the story to me then, where Lilly Singh is arguing for equality of outcome... where she wants all YouTubers to make the same amount of money.

I will, I don’t have time right now. It’s gonna derail the thread too.

 

[Emerald]

29 minutes ago, Derek White said:

I will, I don’t have time right now. It’s gonna derail the thread too.

Please do. 

[Derek White]

54 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Please do. 

There is ton of stuff online of feminists saying dumb stuff if you really care about understanding this, it's willful ignorance on your part. 

Lilly Singh is a great example, there are way funnier people but they gave a late night show to her.

Here are some drama channels covering it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o6o-gypOKw&ab_channel=AngelikaOles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9f4s075tRw&ab_channel=ThatsSoJames

I don't want to extend this argument forward, it's not worth it. I know from experience that there are so many flaws in modern western feminism. It's the complacency for me, not just of feminists but of the whole "woke" culture. They should spend some time in a third world country to see how privileged they are. I can't get myself to care about western feminism, not when there are kids starving on the other side of the world. Also there's the lack of individuality and the tendency to devolve into group think. 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Derek White

[Derek White]

6 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

Feminism is not only about women though.

It's about giving to the entire feminine principle the space it deserves after centuries of repression.

It means woman, feminine values (love, compassion, gentleness, tenderness), feminine traits (ex: emotions), feminine perspectives, and basically anything assigned as feminine in the collective unconscious.

Society is fucked by an imbalance towards masculine values. If you look around are the collective issues, they all find their roots in the absence of value/fear of something we assign as Feminine.

Femininity was dangerous for survival during other social structures, but nowadays it is the cure to a lot of our issues.

Global warming, social inequality, excessive competition/zero-sum game mindset, whatever.. = > excess of masculine principle

Ask 10 people about "feminine principals" and you will get 10 different answers. And then you will have others who say there are more than two genders.

Values are values, labelling them as "masculine" and "feminine" does nothing (but polarize us). Gentleness is gentleness, there's nothing feminine or masculine about it. 

[Emerald]

27 minutes ago, Derek White said:

Ask 10 people about "feminine principals" and you will get 10 different answers. And then you will have others who say there are more than two genders.

Values are values, labelling them as "masculine" and "feminine" does nothing (but polarize us). Gentleness is gentleness, there's nothing feminine or masculine about it. 

The Feminine Principle is an archetype of femininity that can be found in similar symbols and associations throughout a variety of cultures and eras.

Even the word Feminism has a touch of this wisdom. It isn’t called “womanism” because it isn’t all about women. It also has to do with allowing men to connect to their feminine side.

Once you experience Divine Feminine, you will understand that each wave of Feminism that has been and currently is is all about leading society into a space where the deep Feminine can become integrated and the reverence for Mother Nature can be once again recognized and honored by humanity.

And this is true even as Feminists and anti-Feminists alike are in the process of unfolding it. 

[lmfao]

@SamC Supposing that you even wish to use this framework of SD for your growth, I think you're better forgetting about politics if it leads to confusion for you. Politics is messy with collectives, different groups, perceiving threats to yourself, vague and meaningless generalisations. Perhaps better flushed down a toilet?

Past all the minutia of what you've said, my gut is this. You're not being direct about your problems, you're dancing around something instead. Bending over backwards in self doubt. Dithering fool. And I know so because I do the same thing. 

[Emerald]

41 minutes ago, Derek White said:

There is ton of stuff online of feminists saying dumb stuff if you really care about understanding this, it's willful ignorance on your part. 

Lilly Singh is a great example, there are way funnier people but they gave a late night show to her.

Here are some drama channels covering it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o6o-gypOKw&ab_channel=AngelikaOles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9f4s075tRw&ab_channel=ThatsSoJames

I don't want to extend this argument forward, it's not worth it. I know from experience that there are so many flaws in modern western feminism. It's the complacency for me, not just of feminists but of the whole "woke" culture. They should spend some time in a third world country to see how privileged they are. I can't get myself to care about western feminism, not when there are kids starving on the other side of the world. Also there's the lack of individuality and the tendency to devolve into group think. 

Since you were ‘unable’ find her tweet and also unable to supply me any first-hand sources of Feminists arguing for equality of outcome , here is Lilly’s tweet...

Lilly was commenting on how things were pretty even a few years ago and now all the top earners are male.

And she was concerned that “the digital space would repeat the mistakes of ancient industries.”

So, as is in keeping with the Green worldview, she sees the disparity in income as a symptom of corruptions within Youtube as a system. 

She never argued that all YouTubers should have equality of outcome and make the same amount of money.

Stop straw manning.

[Derek White]

3 minutes ago, Emerald said:

The Feminine Principle is an archetype of femininity that can be found in similar symbols and associations throughout a variety of cultures and eras.

Even the word Feminism has a touch of this wisdom. It isn’t called “womanism” because it isn’t all about women. It also has to do with allowing men to connect to their feminine side.

Once you experience Divine Feminine, you will understand that each wave of Feminism that has been and currently is is all about leading society into a space where the deep Feminine can become integrated and the reverence for Mother Nature can be once again recognized and honored by humanity.

And this is true even as Feminists and anti-Feminists alike are in the process of unfolding it. 

I don’t like this framing. Personal preference.

Also, it’s so self serving, as a woman, to say the whole world is moving toward integrating femininity. 

In my personal experience, all the “stage green” types I know are not very happy or successful people. They are complacent and engage in group think. The more I, to use your word, “integrate” individuality and pragmatism the better my life gets.

I think individuality (masculine trait from your framing I believe) is going to become more relevant given that the internet is influencing us so much now. We will need to remove ourselves from it to engage in independent thinking. We can’t think individually when we are focused on other people so much. 

[lmfao]

@Derek White What do you expect of retarded woke youtubers though? You saw how many dislikes Youtube Rewind got, how out of touch that side can be.

There's no limit to the amount of stupid things you'll find lefties and conservatives saying on social media. So then referencing X or Y figure to dismiss one side or the other side is a bit moot. You have to "steelman" the other side and understand them, even if they're shit at explaining themselves. 

[Derek White]

8 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Since you were ‘unable’ find her tweet and also unable to supply me any first-hand sources of Feminists arguing for equality of outcome , here is Lilly’s tweet...

Lilly was commenting on how things were pretty even a few years ago and now all the top earners are male.

And she was concerned that “the digital space would repeat the mistakes of ancient industries.”

So, as is in keeping with the Green worldview, she sees the disparity in income as a symptom of corruptions within Youtube as a system. 

She never argued that all YouTubers should have equality of outcome and make the same amount of money.

The videos I linked had the tweets in them.

She is arguing for equality of outcome, “repeat the mistakes of ancient industries” means being sexist to women. Industries in the past discriminated against women, that’s what she meant. Typical, crying about small things.

No, youtube is not “corrupt” or against women. It is always recommending me sssniperwolf. The CEO is a woman too. She never even used the word “system”.

This is just one example, you can find so many, do your due diligence, find them yourself. 

 

[Emerald]

22 minutes ago, Derek White said:

I don’t like this framing. Personal preference.

Also, it’s so self serving, as a woman, to say the whole world is moving toward integrating femininity. 

In my personal experience, all the “stage green” types I know are not very happy or successful people. They are complacent and engage in group think. The more I, to use your word, “integrate” individuality and pragmatism the better my life gets.

I think individuality (masculine trait from your framing I believe) is going to become more relevant given that the internet is influencing us so much now. We will need to remove ourselves from it to engage in independent thinking. We can’t think individually when we are focused on other people so much. 

It has nothing to do with personal preference. It simply is the shift that society is going through and has been for over a century. You can notice it if you let yourself see.

The whole world is moving towards integrating Femininity. It has been repressed in the collective for thousands of years. 

We are working toward an integration of Divine Feminine and Divine Masculine coming together in the Sacred Marriage. And a dethroning of the Shadow Masculine from the power it has wielded over Mother Earth.

But Stage Green is just the first step towards integration. Most in Stage Green don’t yet see the bigger picture even as they are instrumental within the unfolding of this process.

The level of Feminine integration gets far deeper in Yellow and Turquoise in the individual and the collective as an extension. 

But no Divine Feminine can exist in Red or Blue and only very little Divine Feminine can exist in Orange. So, until Green emerged, the Feminine has been submerged. And the Goddess has barely begun to peek her head above the surface of collective consciousness.

Individuality is important... especially when coming out of Blue and transitioning to Orange. This is probably why you’re very focused on that. But there’s more development to be had beyond that transition.

The problem with focusing ONLY on individually, is that you miss the truths of the collective perspective. You miss the forest for the trees. We’d be wise to have no qualms with looking at either perspective (individuality and collectivism). They don’t invalidate one another. They form a Sacred Marriage of their own.

So, we need a healthy integration between the feminine and masculine. But this is not possible unless we begin seeing that masculine principled qualities like individuality are not superior to feminine principled traits like collectivism. They are two sides to the same coin.

Henceforth, and for the past several millennia, we’ve lived in societies that have regarded the masculine principle as superior and have repressed the feminine principle. This Yang over Yin patriarchal orientation has today led us into corruption and gross inequalities and (as a result) chaos and social decay in our communities. 

This is especially true as we’ve developed our masculine technology in such a way that it threatens to overpower the feminine... aka Mother Nature. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Emerald

[Emerald]

10 minutes ago, Derek White said:

The videos I linked had the tweets in them.

She is arguing for equality of outcome, “repeat the mistakes of ancient industries” means being sexist to women. Industries in the past discriminated against women, that’s what she meant. Typical, crying about small things.

No, youtube is not “corrupt” or against women. It is always recommending me sssniperwolf. The CEO is a woman too. She never even used the word “system”.

This is just one example, you can find so many, do your due diligence, find them yourself. 

You seem to have no idea about what “equality of outcome” actually means.

To argue for “equality of outcome” in this instance means to argue for all YouTubers to make the same amount of money.

And you’ve yet to show me a person who’s making that argument.

If Feminists are making this “equality of outcome” argument all over the place, then you should have no issue screen-shotting me some evidence that I don’t have to watch a bunch of anti-feminist videos to find. 

[Derek White]

4 minutes ago, lmfao said:

@Derek White What do you expect of retarded woke youtubers though? You saw how many dislikes Youtube Rewind got, how out of touch that side can be.

There's no limit to the amount of stupid things you'll find lefties and conservatives saying on social media. So then referencing X or Y figure to dismiss one side or the other side is a bit moot. You have to "steelman" the other side and understand them, even if they're shit at explaining themselves. 

You’re right.

It’s just that lately I’ve been questioning the limitations and biases of spiral dynamics. And according to that the North American societies are suppose to be the most advanced but if I self reflect and focus on my personal experience, I don’t really see that many satisfied people. They are kind of dysfunctional and not as smart or successful as they should be. I’m not that convinced that the culture here is “better” than say India’s (where I grew up). I live in Canada too which is suppose to be greenish. My “Indian” values work really well too. 

I think I’m coming off too strong in my recent posts. Gotta be careful with words, don’t wanna offend peeps.

8 minutes ago, Emerald said:

It has nothing to do with personal preference. It simply is the shift that society is going through and has been for over a century. You can notice it if you let yourself see.

I just don’t like the wording. I don’t like the words “masculine” and “feminine”. I get what you’re saying.

Idk, intuitively, the spiral dynamics model seems kind of iffy to me... maybe I’ll make a post detailing all it’s limitations and biases in the future.

12 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Individuality is important... especially when coming out of Blue and transitioning to Orange. This is probably why you’re very focused on that.

Idk, think I’m going yellow with green backlash. Maybe, might be wrong.

[Carl-Richard]

@Ry4n *Anecdote of one person* => "it's in the education system now going borderline mainstream". Nope, still fringe.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[lmfao]

@Derek White Maybe it's better to not always be obsessed with SD as a hierarchy, and more as a tapestry of different forms and forces. 

Also, all the tier 1 stages are tier 1. Of course there's still meaning to the order they're arranged, but just contextualise it right. A hierarchy as a mathematically abstract object is just a plain old sequence, a string, it's meaningless. It's up to us how we contextualise it and give it meaning. 

Alternatively, you could just throw the whole thing away. It's all about what your goal is, and whether the model is helpful for that

Edited May 3, 2021 by lmfao

[Ry4n]

@Carl-Richard It was just one example, but you'd be living under a rock if you didn't know universities all over the west push this rhetoric.

[Carl-Richard]

4 minutes ago, Ry4n said:

@Carl-Richard It was just one example, but you'd be living under a rock if you didn't know universities all over the west push this rhetoric.

Let's take the JBP route: how many universities exactly? In what way exactly? Is it a part of the curriculum to apologize for being oppressors? Is it a culture? Is it limited to students or does it include faculty?

Edited May 3, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Emerald]

36 minutes ago, Derek White said:

Idk, think I’m going yellow with green backlash. Maybe, might be wrong.

I didn’t get this perspective from Spiral Dynamics. I heard about SD years after I happened upon this feminine/masculine perspective and had many insights about it. And it is an accurate name to call it, as the roots of it is archetypal and across many cultures. 

But Spiral Dynamics also tracks along with these perspectives and insights... but it approaches from a different vantage point. That’s why I can look to SD with a fair amount of certainty that it’s a legitimate system. It fits.

But Yellow isn’t in resistance to Green. It sees and honors Green’s place within the spiral.

A person in Yellow, would not be discouraging Feminism or other Green movements because they would see that that’s the direction society’s HAS TO go in to transcend from the status quo of Orange. 

I can tell that you are mostly in Orange as you really don’t understand the Green perspective and specifically seek to decry it and discourage it... perhaps believing we can skip directly from Orange to Yellow. But this cannot happen. Society has to fully integrate Green. 

But most people tend to overestimate their level on the Spiral by two stages. So, it would be very normal for someone in Stage Orange to believe they’re criticizing Stage Green from the top as opposed to criticizing it from the bottom.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Emerald