I resonate a lot with Jordan Petersons take on feminism - What am I missing?

[SamC]

I´m working towards integrating my anima ( Spiral dynamics stage green) and I have noticed that I resonate a lot with Jordan Peterssens's take on feminism.  I strongly contempt the idea of feminism as a means to justify that men and women should have equality in terms of outcome and I get triggered by the reporters and women in general who debate that this should be the goal.

I AM ALL FOR EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY but I get so triggered by the entitlement that women, because they are the oppressed ones, should get quoted into different social institutions and that we should select people based on the idea of making everything 50 50 ( The victim mentality).  Of course, there should be a representation of different folks in society and it´s good that more women get more power for the whole development of our species, but man, it is something about this, that puts me off ( It´s probably when thinking about it because I feel oppressed by a woman the same way that women feel oppressed by men)

Here is a video that explains JP's take on feminism? Where are we wrong? what am I missing? The answers should preferably come from spiral wizards ( yellow and above) but all thoughts are welcome. I am anticipating a lot of green backlash as replies, and honestly, I welcome that. If you genuinely felt like this was the most devilish and sexist crap ever, please reply and tell me exactly how you feel so that I can practice loving and understanding ( your perspective) green without banging my head against the wall I would really appreciate it,

 

Again what do I got wrong?  What are my biases?  Why can´t I stand spiral dynamics stage green? Or does Jordan Petersen have a point? I would love to hear your thoughts @Nahm @RendHeaven @Emerald @Leo Gura 

[Leo Gura]

A) Stop listening to JP.

B) Go read some feminist books.

C) Check your biases.

Feminism is about about women overtaking them. Feminism is about women being treated on par with men.

Women were not allowed to get a bank loan until the 1970s without a man's permission.

Just think about that.

Why are you so insecure that you are bothered by women getting a little bit better treatment?

[Javfly33]

Do you have resent towards women? That plays a part in men which i know that reject feminism

[SamC]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

A) Stop listening to JP.

B) Go read some feminist books.

C) Check your biases.

@Leo Gura I am on it

[Preety_India]

I'm a feminist. True feminism is not about hating men. 

Feminism is very deep for me. 

I don't understand the critique, unless there is cherry picking to make it look like all feminists are bad with an agenda, which is not the case.. 

 

[SamC]

4 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Do you have resent towards women? That plays a part in men which i know that reject feminism

@Javfly33 100% and I am trying to resolve it but it's pretty damn hard.

I want to say that I don't like feminism becuase I live in a Sweden which is super green and that I therefor have seen the exses but I don't buy it lol. 

[SamC]

 

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Feminism is about about women overtaking them. Feminism is about women being treated on par with men.

Women were not allowed to get a bank loan until the 1970s without a man's permission.

Just think about that.

Why are you so insecure that you are bothered by women getting a little bit better treatment?

Yeah it's pretty fucked up. I want to say that I react against it becuase of the excesses of it but I don't think I can trust that intuition.

When pondering it... it honestly is deeper than woman getting it a little bit better huh....

It's more about seeing woman as a part of one's self and becuase I hate my femine side I don't want to do that which than gets projected out.

Fuck, I think I get it a bit better now..

Any more direct insights or thoughts regarding this?

@Leo Gura

6 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I'm a feminist. True feminism is not about hating men. 

Feminism is very deep for me. 

I don't understand the critique, unless there is cherry picking to make it look like all feminists are bad with an agenda, which is not the case.. 

 

What is true feminism to you?@Preety_India

[Preety_India]

@SamC

True feminism is giving women wings to feel free, strength to be strong and values to be their best self. 

 

 

 

[hyruga]

Jp is alright other that the fact that he took tons of drugs previously. 

Jp also gave off the vibes that he only focused on the intellectual and rational side of things so he always attract people who purposely say the wrong things so that an argument can ensue. 

On the positive side, Jp is calm, rational and courageous. He's not afraid to say his opinions.

I also don't think JP is against feminism. It depends on the definition of feminism and how extreme it is. 

[Leo Gura]

@SamC You have to build a steelman of feminism in your mind before you attempt to deconstruct it.

What is the genuine good intent behind feminism? What is the spirit of feminism? That's what you should contemplate deeply and grasp. Once you grasp that, then you can do some deconstruction and critique of its excesses, keeping in mind that nearly all social movements have excesses. If you don't like the excesses of feminism how about the excesses of toxic masculinity and patriarchy? Don't just conveniently forget about those.

Make a distinction between criticizing feminism from below vs from above. The kind of stuff JP does is from below. He has not integrated it properly and is therefore reacting against his own shadow on behalf of his fan base.

Basically, notice when you are reacting to shit like an animal, and stop it.

[Preety_India]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@SamC You have to build a steelman of feminism in your mind before you attempt to deconstruct it.

What is genuine good intent behind feminism? That's what you should contemplate deeply and grasp. Once you grasp that, then you do some deconstruction and critique of its excesses.

Make a distinction between criticizing feminism from below vs from above. The kind of stuff JP does is from below. He has not integrated it properly and is therefore reacting against his own shadow.

Thank you for this answer. It helps me understand meta construction and deconstruction. 

This should be an important aspect of shadow work. 

It also means being more nuanced which I generally lack. 

Like you explained in content versus structure meta thinking video. 

 

[Javfly33]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

A) Stop listening to JP.

B) Go read some feminist books.

C) Check your biases.

Feminism is about about women overtaking them. Feminism is about women being treated on par with men.

Women were not allowed to get a bank loan until the 1970s without a man's permission.

Just think about that.

Why are you so insecure that you are bothered by women getting a little bit better treatment?

I didn't heard women complain wanting to get on par with men on war troops, garbage Jobs, mining Jobs, homicide victims, homeless, work accidents or prison population. Hm...

Women have lived in a less status position than men yes, but with more security of Life. Men have lived with higher status position than women, and more social freedom, But with less security and more exposed to risk and violence in society. The have been treated with more brutality than women.

Men have been the expendable and brutalized sex. 

Women have been the almost domesticated, and opressesed sex. Each of the sides come with pros and cons

If women want to aspire to an equal status position than men, fine, i would want that to too if i were a woman. But stage Green shouldnt kid themselves telling the story that feminism is about equality or being on par. Its about being on par on "the cherry picked things and Job positions i like about Life" But not evertything else where men have gotten the ugly side.

[Carl-Richard]

Start reading about the first feminists in history and work yourself towards today's feminism and see if you can find where they supposedly went wrong. Simone de Beauvoir is a good place to start.

[Nahm]

@SamC

Sounds like you’re pretty open minded topically and are inspecting your perspectives honestly. Maybe take the triggers you mentioned and look to your relationships present & past. Maybe consider the parent situation in childhood between parents, from one to the other and peach one with you was like. Sometimes we don’t want people to have what we didn’t have, and they seem entitled. All ironically paradoxically boils down to the most abundant ‘substance’ there is. 

Could also be related to a discordant reality sized belief that’s hanging low in your day to day, going unnoticed. That could be anything from belief in pressure or urgency, to doership or efforting. 

 

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, SamC said:

I´m working towards integrating my anima ( Spiral dynamics stage green) and I have noticed that I resonate a lot with Jordan Peterssens's take on feminism.  I strongly contempt the idea of feminism as a means to justify that men and women should have equality in terms of outcome and I get triggered by the reporters and women in general who debate that this should be the goal.

I AM ALL FOR EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY but I get so triggered by the entitlement that women, because they are the oppressed ones, should get quoted into different social institutions and that we should select people based on the idea of making everything 50 50 ( The victim mentality).  Of course, there should be a representation of different folks in society and it´s good that more women get more power for the whole development of our species, but man, it is something about this, that puts me off ( It´s probably when thinking about it because I feel oppressed by a woman the same way that women feel oppressed by men)

Here is a video that explains JP's take on feminism? Where are we wrong? what am I missing? The answers should preferably come from spiral wizards ( yellow and above) but all thoughts are welcome. I am anticipating a lot of green backlash as replies, and honestly, I welcome that. If you genuinely felt like this was the most devilish and sexist crap ever, please reply and tell me exactly how you feel so that I can practice loving and understanding ( your perspective) green without banging my head against the wall I would really appreciate it,

 

Again what do I got wrong?  What are my biases?  Why can´t I stand spiral dynamics stage green? Or does Jordan Petersen have a point? I would love to hear your thoughts @Nahm @RendHeaven @Emerald @Leo Gura 

I’ve never heard a Feminist (or anyone on the left even) argue for “equality of outcome”.

So, what must be understood here is that JP is straw manning the left to give himself an easy and unpopular argument to slap down. Next to no one (left or right) believes in complete equality of outcome.

Public figures on the right of the political spectrum (like JP) often use this tactic to misrepresent people on the left’s views and hearten people to their views by contrast. 

From the stage Green perspective, Feminists and Leftists in general will point to inequalities between people of different demographics as SYMPTOM of deeper structural problems within the collective. Where stage Orange and below will have different views.

For example, if we notice the statistic that black people are nearly three times more likely to be shot by the police than white people are...

A stage Green person will say “What collective issues within society is this a symptom of?” It sees the issues faced by individual trees within a forest as indicative of deeper issues within the structure of the forest. 

But a stage Orange person will say either, “It’s that individual black person’s fault.” Or they’ll say, “It’s the individual cop’s fault. There’s a few bad apples in the system.”

And a stage Blue person will skew collective like Green but they’ll say, “Of course black people get shot more often by the cops. Black people are just worse than white people as a collective.”

So, when JP says that Feminists and others on the left are arguing for equality of outcome he’s giving a bastardized and uncharitable distortion of that perspective. 

So, instead of recognizing that the argument is “Hey, we noticed that there is a substantial pay gap between men and women. So, this may be indicative of some collective issues with sexism within the greater system that must be addressed.” He says, “The left wants everyone to make the same amount of money, period.” And that just isn’t true... especially because the type of Feminists that stand most for this perspective tend to be Capitalist-leaning. 

It’s that people in stage Green are noticing that patterns within the trees may indicate a deeper issue with the forest. And if there is an inequality, then we should regard that as a red flag and explore the roots of that inequality to find out if there’s any deeper systemic and structural issues within society at large. 

Also, Feminists are not a monolith. There’s a great diversity in Feminist thought, and there’s a ton of in- fighting. The same thing is true with Leftists.

So, there’s also that problem with the way JP frames the left. 

So, I second what Leo said. Read some stage Green stuff about Intersectional Feminism. You’ll get a feel for what the actual perspective is... instead of what JP and others straw man it as.

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Emerald

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

I didn't heard women complain wanting to get on par with men on war troops, garbage Jobs, mining Jobs, homicide victims, homeless, work accidents or prison population. Hm...

Again, why are you so insecure that you begrudge treating women a bit better?

Whatever you say, it always comes back to that.

It's just pettiness. If you were secure you would not mind if women were treated a bit better. Ironically you've weaponized "equality" as an extension of your insecurity and smallness.

When a secure person gets overcharged 5 cents, he lets it go. When an insecure person gets overcharged 5 cents, he starts a crusade for "fairness".

[Preety_India]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Again, why are you so insecure that you begrudge treating women a bit better?

Whatever you say, it always comes back to that.

It's just pettiness. If you were secure you would not mind if women were treated a bit better. Ironically you've weaponized "equality" as an extension of your insecurity and smallness.

When a secure person gets overcharged 5 cents, he lets it go. When an insecure person gets overcharged 5 cents, he starts a crusade for "fairness".

Your comebacks are just awesome today. 

Me hurriedly taking notes. 

 

[Jacob Morres]

Ah the perfect thread for this video. This part in this video explains the dark side of feminism 

22:06 - 29:12

 

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Jacob Morres

[blackchair]

just imagine having a girl as parent and everything will sit in its place.

[Derek White]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's just pettiness. If you were secure you would not mind if women were treated a bit better. Ironically you've weaponized "equality" as an extension of your insecurity and smallness.

When a secure person gets overcharged 5 cents, he lets it go. When an insecure person gets overcharged 5 cents, he starts a crusade for "fairness".

We can flip this around and ask feminists this same question, "why are you so insecure if men get treated a bit better?"

Why don't you ever ask that of the other side?

Why don't we treat poor people, ugly people, and weak people a little better? Why does it have to be on gender lines?

And it's not just about treating women a bit better, if we are treating them a bit better at least be honest about it.

The last line literally applies to feminists talking about the "pink tax". 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Derek White
Added last line.