The Heart Centric Perspective on Veganism

[ilja]

@integral 

i knew you would bite the bullet and i expected you to answer on this.

of course it would be a disaster, people aren't ready for veganism. there would be a massive out cry, like taking the toys away from a giant baby that covers half the globe.

"those filthy vegans took my right away to be a natural man of nature, to arms!"

Edited May 3, 2021 by ilja

[integral]

@ilja Did it have something to do with that comment i left on giving babies an orgasms? haha

In chess the value of every piece is relative to the position. A queen is worth as much as a pawn if the position calls for her to be sacrificed. Whether i empathize with her individual needs is not going to change the next sequence of moves where she is sacrificed for the whole. 

Heart centric is a subset of Whole centric. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by integral

[aurum]

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

But almost nobody is on a diet 24/7/365. Most of us occasionally like to get a burger or pizza. And even though they are against factory farming and animal cruelty, they still order a beef burger even though they are clearly not eating the burger for health reasons. This is a huge hypocrisy.

So, if you are against these things, at least get the vegan option when you don't intent to eat a healthy meal.

I agree, that would be hypocritical. I would strongly advise people against factory farmed meat. It’s not good for your soul or your health.

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

No they didn't. Do you realize that we used to be "indigenous" at some point as well? How did we get here if we had been so "connected" to nature and the animals?

See, the only reason what indigenous people do looks more sustainable and connected from the outside is because it's ridiculously small scale.

Scale is certainly an important factor. I’ve made that same point on my YouTube channel. Although it’s not the whole story. Indigenous folk saw things much differently.

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Just imagine if 8 billion people hunted their own food and held their own livestock. This would be incredibly inefficient and unsustainable.

Inefficient perhaps. But maximum efficiency should not be our goal. That’s how we got in this mess.

I am not suggesting a turning back of the clock and simply going back to an indigenous lifestyle. I agree we need modern solutions to these problems. But veganism ain’t it.

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Could you describe how you "ethically" murder an innocent animal that does not want to die?

Animals kill animals all the time, they’re not innocent little flowers.

And yes, I understand there is a huge asymmetry of power between humans and animals that we use for exploitation. But that is not an inherent feature to eating animals.

Something has to die for you to live. Vegan or not.

If you specifically would like to see the practices of one of the places I source my meat, you can read about one of the farms I use here:

https://belcampo.com/pages/about-us

 

[ilja]

@integral it did, it did. but not only that. there were previous posts of such attitude, not necessarily children related.

and yet the heart centered is still a part of the whole centered.

Edited May 3, 2021 by ilja

[kieranperez]

12 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Real predators, kill the sickest and weakest animals.

Yes and we all do that everyday, regardless of our diet. I can apply that to vegans because hey, it's easier to kill plants and so forth for our own selfish survival agenda. You kill bugs everyday when you walk on the ground whether you're aware of it or not. So this really isn't saying anything. 

12 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yeah, I totally get it. It's incredibly respectful and loving to lurk camouflaged in the bushes with high-tech gear, GPSs and a rifle to shoot an unsuspecting, innocent animal in the head for sport.

What a deep compassionate, mutual bond with nature and the animal kingdom...

Also, hunters like to kill the trophy animals, the biggest, strongest, most impressive ones.

You're conflating corrupt forms of hunting with the entire hunting community. Native Americans killed wild buffalo (among other animals) while having having thriving spiritual tribes in yet it's also in their culture and customs to experience great a sense of respect and gratitude for the animals that they kill. There are ethical codes to within the hunting community and if you're too blind and dogmatic to see that, that's on you to get that, nobody else. 

Regarding compassion, compassion is an experience we create in our own experience. You can be enlightened and still be a samurai or a warrior and kill people. Hence the samurai in Japan that were trained in Rinzai Zen. Hence Muhammad. In yet you can do so from a place of great compassion and still "do your duty."

Giraffes and elephants have to kill plants by eating from them everyday. Is that a relationship to nature that lacks compassion by your standards? Plants are just as much alive as animals or humans. So this stance of yours is purely ideological and self biased. 

[ilja]

@kieranperez plants aren't sentient, vegans are more ethical than carnists in that regard

[freejoy]

: )

 

 

 

 

[Tetcher]

Maybe the lack of heart perspective comes because vegan people often talk aggressively like activists as if they were trying to display their moral high ground rather than expressing themselves from the heart.

[ilja]

@Tetcher not really, it's mostly just people  being offended by the message and projecting that onto the vegans as "insulting".

[kieranperez]

25 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

If you want to determine if an action is ethical you have to see it from the victim's point of view, not from the perpetrator's.

Ethical codes within the hunting community are worth as much as ethical codes within the slave owner community. You can't kill for sport and then claim that you're ethical. It's a complete hypocrisy. 

Every sentient being (so long as we say there are sentient beings at all to begin) all play a role of victims, perpetrators, and rescuers. Every. Single. One. The motivation and function of being a perpetrator is not possible without having been a victim. The reality is, I can also just say that could be the karma of that particular animal. 

Saying you can't kill for sport is just your self biased view. The fact is is that you can. Ethics isn't purely determined by the actions you take by the way you experience it. The manifestation of one's ethics is very much based on one's point of view. Suicide bombers and terrorists experience tremendous states of ecstasy and bliss when they are doing what they're doing because for them from their smaller vantage point of perspective, based on their stage of development, what they're doing actually is ethical. And guess what? If you go back a couple thousand years ago when human societies functioned at an ethnocentric level at best, which was considered the leading edge at that time, similar sort of actions that we today in our world centric cultures call terrorism, would've lead such warriors to being considered cultural heroes because they actually were! Our society was only possible thanks to tons of rape and pillage, conquering, war, devastation, suffering, and also great innovations, leadership, etc. And guess what? Things are actually better thanks to this so called "immoral" function. Why? Morality and ethics are very much relative depending on the vantage point of one's perspective. Child sacrifice was actually considered very honorable at one point in history. 

The reality is, none of these views, and that's what they are, views, aren't really true in it of itself. I'm not saying or suggesting some dismissal of feeling your heart break open if you see factory farming or you read about the kinds of suffering animals go through in a laboratory. I am saying though that that is the reality in which we live. That is the case and it's not ultimately a matter of good and bad. Many of those animals that are tested on in a laboratory ground a way for us to create very helpful resources for the world such as various medicines. Being a human being is very complex. This binary view of ethics is just naive. There is great suffering in the world and no matter how "advanced" humans get, that will remain to be the case. Suffering and survival go together. They cannot and will not ever be separate (at least by and large). 

43 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

1) Plants aren't sentient and they don't feel pain since they neither have pain receptors nor a central nervous system. But even if they did, you should still be vegan since vastly more plants are "killed" in the production of animal products.

Yes they actually do. This has been known by yogis, shamans, etc. for thousands of years but even modern science no longer disputes this. Read up on Rupert Sheldrake's contributions on the matter. The fact that you think plants don't have a nervous system shows you're uneducated regarding basic biology. Plants do experience sensations. It's not "pain" in the way human beings conceptualize it as even human "pain" isn't really pain but is actually very much conceptual. However, they do experience sensations, and, depending on the plant, are quite sensitive to sensations and what they take in. 

48 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Vegans simply try to act a little more responsible and take a more holistic perspective. They understand that what they put into the shopping cart at the grocery stores is closely linked to many global issues we're facing today and has negative consequences for others that can be easily reduced or even avoided entirely.

Speaking about all individuals that follow this general food trend is not useful. Many vegans I've met (I live in San Francisco so I've met A LOT of them) are very ideologically driven and actually rather tribal regarding their view. Many vegans I've met also have rather shitty diets. Following a vegan diet doesn't at all mean you're necessarily conscious of the things we're speaking about or even following anything healthy. You can drink tons of beer and load up on all sorts of junk food, which, by your moralistic thinking, I could argue you'd be funding corrupt corporations that poison people with food coloring agents, preservatives, or you're paying for fruits and vegetables that were grown in completely unethical ways (see my first comment on this post where I point out, and you can do your homework on this, how even our "organic" fruits and vegetables that you buy at Whole Foods are still grown in very "insidious" ways). 

The reality is, this simplistic view of ethics and morals is just a circle jerk. Morality and ethics are very much relative have no reality beyond these views. It is not true in it of itself. So all these claims you're making as declarative truth statements don't hold water, ultimately. Again, I'm not suggesting you don't feel what you feel. I am saying though that our dispositions are just that, dispositions that are full of bias, conditions, deception, etc. that serve a particular agenda, namely survival. 

I also want to point out, again, that not everybody can even follow a vegan diet for various reasons. Vegan diets aren't healthy for everyone. Vegan diets isn't possible for everyone even in terms of convenience in regards to what their local markets have to provide for food.

I am not fond of trophy hunting or anything like that. I would like it if that stuff could stop. That said, it should be here and does here. Why? Because it already does. That is the fact. To argue otherwise is to argue in favor of lies, fantasy, beliefs, etc. In other words, what's not true. There is tragedy in the world. That will remain. There is suffering in the world. That will remain. There is also comedic aspect to all of this too as well as a profound sense of beauty. The most rapturous insights regarding the beauty of everything is precisely because our world situation is so utterly complex, confusing, paradoxical, twisted, and so forth. That is the joke and the tragedy and they both go together. My challenge for you would be to view your ethics from such a vantage. Dare to be honest with yourself on both ends of that spectrum and not lie and say what you don't like shouldn't be the case because guess what, it already. Don't disown anything and do whatever you want. 

[Danioover9000]

   Jesus, the level of hypocrisy and trolling in this thread is sky high. Veganism, along with vegan diet, is relative. Look at Leo, he mostly ate plants for his diet, until his health problems in his gut happened recently. He changed to carnivore diet and got some relief. Sometimes veganism and vegan diets work, until they don't.

[Tetcher]

@kieranperez all the points you're bringing have all already been brought in posts about veganism it's always the same that come back. In essence you're justifying meat eating by shrugging saying that predators and preys are anyway the essence of life, that vegans are predators also and anyway they have bad eating habits so we may as well keep the hell on earth that meat industry is up and running.

When you eat meat the animals already ate tons of vegetable so you're multiplying the suffering of the vegetables when you don't eat them directly. Vegans may not be perfect, they may eat fast food as you say but they wouldn't argue against actions to make things better. If someone had offered steps to get better they would accept it. Nobody wants to starve anybody, it's about being sensible and reducing overall suffering for a more harmonious society.

Have you watched at least one documentary on meat industry ? Dominion is a good one : 

If you argue in favor of that that's fine just don't pretend that you want to help other people or the world or something to that extent.

[Forestluv]

On 5/2/2021 at 9:30 AM, aurum said:

That is what most vegans would argue. Indigneous people ate animals because they had to. And now that we are more evolved, we no longer have to.

I think it’s the exact opposite.

Indigenous folks had that relationship with animals precisely because they ate and hunted animals.

By this logic, indigenous folks also had an intimate relationship with humans they sacrificed during sacred ceremonies - precisely because they hunted and sacrificed humans. In one context, it's true that there was a form of intimate relationship between the hunters and those they sacrificed. It's true that there was a form of sacredness during ceremonies. Yet in another context, it's a gross distortion. 

Along these lines, killing someone by strangulation is one of the most intensely intimate moments possible. Yet it's also an extremely dark form of intimacy.  It's a special kind of special. 

[ilja]

@Danioover9000 wrong derivation, leo is not representative of the general population.

[SgtPepper]

lol here we go again.

I actually think vegans lack holism, a heart centric perspective, and priority. 

There is nothing hearty about letting human beings suffer and degrade due to nutritional deficiency and to survive, one has to prioritize. That's having heart for being alive and human.

Literally, I look at these vegan kids on YouTube and I feel sad seeing them

To be holistic, you gotta see that you are an animal that has a specie history of eating other animals, just like, every other animal.

Vegans disown their own nature and ancestry. So it is not very holistic to me.

I know my dog has a great time sharing some chicken with me. Thats how its improved my relationship with animals.

 

 

I still believe and wish for ethical farming to re-define the way humans interact with farm animals.

Edited May 5, 2021 by SgtPepper

[aurum]

4 hours ago, Forestluv said:

By this logic, indigenous folks also had an intimate relationship with humans they sacrificed during sacred ceremonies - precisely because they hunted and sacrificed humans. In one context, it's true that there was a form of intimate relationship between the hunters and those they sacrificed. It's true that there was a form of sacredness during ceremonies. Yet in another context, it's a gross distortion. 

Along these lines, killing someone by strangulation is one of the most intensely intimate moments possible. Yet it's also an extremely dark form of intimacy.  It's a special kind of special. 

I’ve got to push back on you for that one.

I don’t agree that killing animals is inherently some sort of dark, distorted version of intimacy. That is your projection, based on the assumption that killing animals is dark or distorted. And therefore any relationship or intimacy people gain from hunting must be dark or distorted.

[Tetcher]

Thanks guys you opened my eyes, 

1 hour ago, SgtPepper said:

To be holistic, you gotta see that you are an animal that has a specie history of eating other animals, just like, every other animal.

Vegans disown their own nature and ancestry. Not very holistic to me.

It's transformation. In the past we didn't know better but now it's different. There are societies that are vegans and well.

Quote

I don’t agree that killing animals is inherently some sort of dark, distorted version of intimacy. That is your projection, based on the assumption that killing animals is dark or distorted. And therefore any relationship or intimacy people gain from hunting must be dark or distorted.

Hunting animals for the kick of it doesn't sound too good. But the main problem is meat industry. Imagine being a cow forced into one of those narrow pathway were she can't turn around, knowing she's going to die, the stench of death, she panicks tries to turn around but can't so she refuses to walk so she's tazed and beaten and forced to advance to her death. If you only could realize what it means to go through such experience you would understand why I'm talking about hell on earth. It's utter madness that we created in this universe.

[Forestluv]

5 hours ago, aurum said:

 

I don’t agree that killing animals is inherently some sort of dark, distorted version of intimacy. That is your projection, based on the assumption that killing animals is dark or distorted. And therefore any relationship or intimacy people gain from hunting must be dark or distorted.

I don’t assume that killing animals is dark or distorted. 

I am pointing out distinctions of intimacy and how conflation can cause cloudiness. Gazing into a woman’s eyes as she orgasms while making love is a form of intimacy. Gazing into a woman’s eyes as she takes her last breath during strangulation is a form of intimacy. Grouping them both together as “intimacy” is correct, yet is a very crude, low resolution view. 

[Danioover9000]

13 hours ago, SgtPepper said:

lol here we go again.

I actually think vegans lack holism, a heart centric perspective, and priority. 

There is nothing hearty about letting human beings suffer and degrade due to nutritional deficiency and to survive, one has to prioritize. That's having heart for being alive and human.

Literally, I look at these vegan kids on YouTube and I feel sad seeing them

To be holistic, you gotta see that you are an animal that has a specie history of eating other animals, just like, every other animal.

Vegans disown their own nature and ancestry. So it is not very holistic to me.

I know my dog has a great time sharing some chicken with me. Thats how its improved my relationship with animals.

 

 

I still believe and wish for ethical farming to re-define the way humans interact with farm animals.

   Exactly. Diets work until they don't. When they don't work, change diet. When they still work, don't change diet. Carnivore people are simple minded, and vegans are deluded when they don't acknowledge their diet stops working and is hurting their health. It's not that hard.

   Balance and flexibility is important.

[Danioover9000]

   Veganism, the morality and the health aspects, are relative.