Feeling Confused about States of Consciousness

[SQAAD]

I was watching this video with Anna Brown. And basically it is like she is dismissing that different States of Cosnciousness exist . She seems to be dismissive of lower consciousness/ higher consciousness, higher vibrations and etc.

I have heard similar opinions from other spiritual teachers. Rupert Spira and Frank Yang seem to have a similar approach.

How you make sense of all this?

In my experience there are higher states of Consciousness especially when i take Psychedelics. Some people seems to be dismissive of all this 'states' thing just for the sake of the simplicity of what already is.

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by SQAAD

[Moksha]

States only exist in relative reality. Ultimate reality is changeless. Not to dismiss the soul journey, which is from state to state, and is worthy of honor as such, but is still simply a form within the dream.

[BipolarGrowth]

5 minutes ago, Moksha said:

States only exist in relative reality. Ultimate reality is changeless. Not to dismiss the soul journey, which is from state to state, and is worthy of honor as such, but is still simply a form within the dream.

What separates Ultimate reality from relative reality? Isn’t that the ice wall everyone’s talking about? 

[Leo Gura]

Denying states is so stupid because you can drink a bottle of vodka and obviously change your state.

All states are Absolute Truth, but that doesn't mean there are no states or that states are not important.

You are ALWAYS in some state. You cannot ever escape states. What you can do is not care about which state you are in, but this too is rather stupid because your state matters.

People who say state doesn't matter are saying so from a highly functional state which they totally take for granted.

Whether you chase states or not, your state is still absolutely crucial for life.

Again, all states are Absolute Truth, but few states are highly functional or deeply self-aware.

The state of psychosis is Absolute Truth, but you don't want to be in that state.

If Anna Brown was in a psychotic state, she would not be awake. To say that it doesn't matter is so absurd that it boggles the mind. If that doesn't matter then nothing matters to you -- in which case there is nothing further to discuss.

[SQAAD]

@Leo Gura

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

People who say state doesn't matter are saying so from a highly functional state which they totally take for granted.

So true.

[Moksha]

1 hour ago, BipolarGrowth said:

What separates Ultimate reality from relative reality? Isn’t that the ice wall everyone’s talking about? 

Game of thrones ? The ice wall is the iconic illusion of separation, the differentiation of the white walkers of the north from the forgone humans behind the wall. Riveting, but ultimately what if we are all the same actor?  Nothing more riveting than a good story.

[BipolarGrowth]

I’m almost 18 minutes into this video, and I haven’t heard her say that states don’t exist. So far, she has said that states are part of the dream essentially. Judging any state as higher or lower is ultimately informed by the dream character’s assessments and biases. Her teachings seem decent so far. There’s certainly some value in them. 
 

There are seemingly infinitely different perspectives which would make any of our current assessments of higher/lower irrelevant. Our assessments in this regular life on Earth are of course valuable while here, but eventually you’ll be forced to discard them. You could do it in advance if you wish. 

[AtheisticNonduality]

@Leo Gura States exist but they are changes of the objective mind's "awareness." Nothingness is Nothingness and will stay Nothingness. There are not levels of Nothingness other than those perceived by an imagined mind. 

[The0Self]

She must be speaking in absolutes. Though fwiw, I've never really heard any such statements from her... Closest thing would maybe be something like (paraphrasing) "there aren't really stages" with the obvious caveat (and point), "you are already it."

On a side note though...what a ridiculously beautiful woman.

Edited May 1, 2021 by The0Self

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

There are not levels of Nothingness

There are levels of comprehension of Nothingness.

If you've only had one level of awakening, you have no idea how much you're missing.

You are missing as much after your first awakening as you were before your first awakening.

[The0Self]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There are levels of comprehension of Nothingness.

If you've only had one level of awakening, you have no idea how much you're missing.

You are missing as much after your first awakening as you were before your first awakening.

Sounds like you're describing an axis comprised of: higher understandings, higher states of consciousness, and deeper insight experiences. I tend to think (maybe you disagree) this to be a different axis altogether (though linked in some way) when comparing it with awakening/enlightenment/liberation (final, system-transforming, and ongoing insight into the true nature of what could be labelled as either the self or/& knowing)...

Enlightenment (even so-called "levels" of it) while it may come in different "flavors," always involves simply observing something closely/carefully/steadily enough so that what is seen, is that it's not there, which is precisely why cessations in meditation are so appropriately lauded for their tendency to produce awakening. I think this (latter) axis is the sort Anna Brown, Rupert Spira, Eckhart Tolle, Tony Parsons, etc exclusively refer to. They've abandoned the prospect of further development in this axis, but it's for essentially the same reason no adult really cares about "believing in Santa Claus even less..." I'm on the fence about whether further progress can somehow be made in this (latter) axis; I truly hold no position with regard to that... but I will say: I don't understand how it could possibly happen, after enlightenment "happens."

I guess a potential "problem" is that some of the types of characters I listed may have abandoned the other (former) axis as well, which of course never ends... and only seems to get deeper and more profound.

Just thinking out loud. Not really a question.

Well, do you think these 2 axes of development are actually one and the same?

[Leo Gura]

@The0Self The way I conceive of it, awakening has one axis with two directions: the emptiness direction and the God-consciousness direction. You can move up or down. Down is emptiness, up is Infinite God Consciousness. But even the emptiness direction has degrees of realizing emptiness. And the God consciousness direction basically goes to infinite levels higher.

And of course these two direction are not really two, they are one. God Consciousness IS emptiness, but it's also so much more than that.

To me the realization of emptiness is peanuts compared to Infinite God Consciousness. Infinite God Consciousness is what you really want. Emptiness is cool but sorta meh. To stop at emptiness and proclaim it king is a big mistake in my book.

I've experienced emptiness and Infinity many times. And Infinity is way superior. And although Infinity is emptiness, your classic gurus are not infinitely consciousness. Not even close. Like not even 1%. Emptiness is way easier than Infinity. So to stop at emptiness is to set the bar low whereas Infinity sets the bar infinitely high.

Of course emptiness cannot really have levels to it. It's just infinitely empty. But just because you are empty does not mean you are infinitely conscious of yourself as God. You probably don't even realize what God is. You can have some degree of awakening but still fundamentally not realize what God is. To realize God in its fullness requires going up the axis, not down. This is why Buddhists and Neo-Advaitans can sit there and deny God with a straight face. They've gone all the way down, but not all the way up. And they have no clue what they're missing because they think they've made it.

This shit is very tricky. Much trickier than any guru admits.

In my book it is not enough to hollow out the ego-mind and just reside in emptiness. You must actually enter a state of Infinite God Consciousness. This is a state of Total Omniscience. This is God proper. How to achieve this state stably is the fundamental problem. Yes, it is a state. And you are definitely missing this state. You are not even 0.0001% to this state even if you think you are enlightened.

Totally emptying your mind is not the same thing as making your mind Infinite. Classic enlightenment teachers have a bias towards the former while poo-pooing the latter. But the latter is superior in my experience.

God is not only no-mind. God is Infinite Mind.

And if you're missing LOVE, it's because you've emptied your mind too much and got stuck there in nihilism. Try going up instead of down.

The bottom of the ocean is interesting, but outer space is more interesting

P.S. Infinite Consciousness is way more than mere insights. At it highest levels Infinite Consciousness is the complete interconnection of every bit of consciousness in existence into a single infinitely interconnected and all-knowing point of singularity. You are not merely having insights about infinity at that point. YOU ARE INFINITY.

[The0Self]

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@The0Self The way I conceive of it, awakening has one axis with two directions: the emptiness direction and the God-consciousness direction. You can move up or down. Down is emptiness, up is Infinite God Consciousness. But even the emptiness direction has degrees of realizing emptiness. And the God consciousness direction basically goes to infinite levels higher.

And of course these two direction are not really two, they are one. God Consciousness IS emptiness, but it's also so much more than that.

To me the realization of emptiness is peanuts compared to Infinite God Consciousness. Infinite God Consciousness is what you really want. Emptiness is cool but sorta meh. To stop at emptiness and proclaim it king is a big mistake in my book.

I've experienced emptiness and Infinity many times. And Infinity is way superior. And although Infinity is emptiness, your classic gurus are not infinitely consciousness. Not even close. Like not even 1%. Emptiness is way easier than Infinity.

That is largely congruent with my experience. Guess there are just many facets, but they’re of course ultimately interdependent. I certainly experience the God-consciousness direction you speak of as being FAR (immeasurably) more “vast” than the emptiness direction, but what I am not hearing from you is any indication that the emptiness direction has a limit.

From here, it does in fact seem (though I could be wrong) that emptiness both has a limit, and is alone associated with what most refer to as “enlightenment” — once it’s absolutely clear that every-thing (including all objects; thoughts, ideas, assumptions, the separate-self, the knower, and even knowing) is unfathomable, has no existence as a thing in itself, etc... AND the mind is steady enough to “never forget it...” I don’t really see a “further,” apart from maybe, in a roundabout way, so-called “Concentration” (not a great word for what I really mean: steadiness + happiness).

But yeah, the God-consciousness/Love direction is not only more amazing ime, but from here, I don’t see any end in sight,  or even possible. Just keeps going.

Seems both directions could be said to be unified as the all-inclusive “Unconditional Love axis” ❤️ 

Edited May 1, 2021 by The0Self

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, The0Self said:

but what I am not hearing from you is any indication that the emptiness direction has a limit.

I think that if you grasp it deeply enough you can say it has a limit. It's infinitely empty and you've sorta plumbed the depths of it to the point where there's nothing more to do with it because it has no qualities whatsoever. So it's rather simple at that point.

But still, many people have not grasped it deeply enough. Most people have glimpses of it.

Think of it like the difference between counting down from a random number to zero vs counting up from a random number to infinity. It's easier to count down to zero because zero is the bottom floor. But there is no upper floor. Zero has that sort of special quality to it of being so empty that you can't get any less than zero. So you could say that zero is a natural limit. Whereas counting upward has no natural limit.

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From here, it does in fact seem (though I could be wrong) that emptiness both has a limit, and is alone associated with what most refer to as “enlightenment” — once it’s absolutely clear that every-thing is unfathomable, has no existence as a thing in itself, etc... AND the mind is steady enough to “never forget it...” I don’t really see a “further,”

In that direction, by your own framing of the situation, yes, there is "no further".

But there is further in the upward direction. If you poo-poo the upward direction, then yes, you're done. Or stuck.

And if you choose to define that as "full enlightenment" then you are fully enlightened by your own self-imposed definition.

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But yeah, the God-consciousness/Love direction is not only more amazing ime, but from here, I don’t see any end in sight,  or even possible. Just keeps going.

Seems both directions could be said to be unified as the all-inclusive “Unconditional Love axis” ❤️ 

Both directions are important and valid.

My only point is, don't invalidate the upward direction. Even though I like the upward direction more than the downward I don't invalidate the downward. The whole thing must come full-circle in the end. You could say some of us are traversing the circle upward and some of us downward, and we debate each other as we cross paths about which direction is better.

Some spiritual schools, like Zen/Vedanta, have a bias towards traversing the circle downward. While some spiritual schools, like Christianity, Hinduism, or psychonauts, have a bias towards traversing the circle upward. The upward schools tend to talk about Love and God more, and they tend to be more mystical and otherworldly. But of course this is a gross over-simplification. You can traverse both ways and gain the benefits of both. Assuming you're openminded. And most spiritual people aren't.

[erik8lrl]

I think it's just a different approach to teaching. To the experience of a human, there are definitely different states of consciousness.  But to God, God is all the states of consciousness. These teachers are describing the ultimate truth from God's perspective, and it might work for some, but it's unlikely that this way of teaching will lead to direct experiences of really high states of consciousness. Not impossible, but much harder. It's more for those who are already close to the realization of God as existence, but it might mislead others who are less developed. The realization is very important, but it's not the endpoint for God-realization. The realization of existence will lead to a state of pure beingness, which is needed for awakening. It's really the beginning of higher consciousness since now you can surrender much more easily.   

@Leo Gura Yeah, both directions lead to each other. When you reach the absolute extreme of infinite infinity, you will end up in absolute nothingness as infinite God/love. The two are merged in the end when you go all the way. The same goes for nothingness. When you reach the absolute extreme of nothingness, you reach infinite God/love. Once they are merged, it's like the ultimate strange loop; every infinity is infinitely nothing and infinitely loving and whole at the same time. 

 

All of these differences and ideas and preferences and teachings are infinite love/nothing/us, making this experience more entertaining. 

[Nahm]

11 hours ago, SQAAD said:

How you make sense of all this?

What she’s sharing is worthy of your consideration.  

[Someone here]

Its so simple its almost stupid, forget what nonduality, god, consciousness means, thats not  what she is talking about.

She basically saying, I don't know what anything is, but "something" is going on and what ever it is, is going on, like duh.

Then if you get the stupid simplicity of that, and are not longer trying to figure out what exactly that may be, simply ask and maybe recognize, could what ever the mystery of whats going on, not be going during the infinitely different "states of consciousness".. and if no, then whats going on now..... the mystery of what is?

Pretty stupidly simple and may seem unimportant, almost like saying salty tastes salty right,...... right.....AMAZING.

[Moksha]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

God is not only no-mind. God is Infinite Mind.

So true, and worthy of calling out.

Not to discredit awakenings to emptiness, which some on this forum have had, but there is so much more to the essence of ourselves beyond emptiness. Consciousness is infinitely abundant. Creativity has no limits. Beyond the void, the possibilities of relative reality are endless, and the dream is no less than the dreamer. Consciousness is not just nothing; it underlies everything and every nothing. Deeper than the human mind, which is only one expression, can comprehend. Ultimately, it is the singular ultracosmic jewel, rotating in myriad facets of awareness.

[Shin]

She is too direct, I'm scared