What is the depth of corruption in capitalism?

[trenton]

This is a deep and complicated topic that effects every country in the world.  I am interested in this topic because when studying unknown political issues, I discovered that Bernie Sanders and other social democrats are in favor of militarization because the social Democratic economy depends on hurting other nations through imperialism.  The U.S. economy also benefits from slavery.  Most money in the world is made through exploitation, slavery, and other human rights violations.

I hope to learn more about what the radical left really is.  There is a lot of misinformation and this global economic atrocity is easily ignored in many cultures.  What would a better economic system look like and how would it be implemented?

I would like to use this thread to expand on the following topics.  Why are democrats and republicans a false choice?  What did Martin Luther king mean when he said that racism, capitalism, and militarism are all related?  What is the full extent of the human rights violations caused by corporate greed?  What radical economic reforms will be necessary in order to stop imperialism and exploitation across the globe?

[roopepa]

22 minutes ago, trenton said:

What radical economic reforms will be necessary in order to stop imperialism and exploitation across the globe?

Not spreading low conscious propaganda about the "radical left" and "military Bernie" would be a good start in order to get the Green and above take action.

The whole of human history has basically been one group exploiting another. We need a new kind of human being to grow beyond it.

[DocWatts]

The 'radical Left' is something that exists in the imagination of low conscious people that have been indoctrinated into Right Wing propaganda, rather than as an actual thing that exists within contemporary US Politics.

Bernie and the progressive Wing of the Democratic Party are in actuality Social Democrats, and would be considered either Centrists and just slightly Left of Center in most other Industrialized Democracies.

None of them are seeking to spark a revolutionary movement to bring down the United States government or have the aim of overthrowing Capitalism.

If you want to contrast that with a Historical example of an actual Radical Leftist, you'd have to look back as far as someone like Vladimir Lennon; whose aim was to build a Revolutionary Vanguard with the goal of overthrowing the government and installing something radically different in its place.

While someone like Martin Luther King was a socialist, his aims were to work within Civil Society to advocate for substantial reforms towards a far more just and humane socio-economic system. He wasn't trying to spark a Revolutionary movement.  

While inclinations towards Revolutionary action did exist within some factions of the later Black Power movement that emerged after MLK's murder, these sort of movements have always been extremely fringe within the US political environment, and none have been successful at attracting large numbers of followers; most tending to fizzle out once thier activities began being monitored and infiltrated by Law Enforcement agencies like the FBI.

In fact, right Wing militias and movements (such as Trump's MAGA Cult) have been far more destabilizing and dangerous than any Left wing groups...

Edited May 1, 2021 by DocWatts

[Opo]

2 hours ago, DocWatts said:

Bernie and the progressive Wing of the Democratic Party are in actuality Social Democrats, and would be considered either Centrists and just slightly Left of Center in most other Industrialized Democracies. 

Nop. 

Bernie wanted to eliminate private Healthcare. That's pretty left and doesn't exist anywhere in the other industrialized Democracies. 

2 hours ago, DocWatts said:

In fact, right Wing militias and movements (such as Trump's MAGA Cult) have been far more destabilizing and dangerous than any Left wing groups... 

How so? 

[DocWatts]

@Opo

That is incorrect. You're conflating ending Private Health Insurance with ending all Private Medicine. They are not the same thing.

What Bernie is specifically in favor of is Medicare for All, which would expand the scope of Medicare to cover everyone in the entire country.

While is true that Private Insurance companies would not participate in such a system, private Practitioners would still exist under Medicare for All. It's not like your family Doctor would all of a sudden be working for the Government under such a system: Medicare would pay for Services rendered. Pharmaceutical companies would still exist under Medicare for All, but would be much more tightly regulated, and unable to charge whatever they want for medications.

Conditions in the US are such that Medicare for All could not co-exist within the current system of Private Health Insurance, so significant disruptions to the private Insurance Industry are %100 a pragmatic necessity, because Private Insurance companies drive up costs to the insane levels that exist within the US.

[DocWatts]

1 hour ago, Opo said:

How so? 

Is this a serious question? I would have that that the Jan. 6 Insurrection attempt by MAGA Cultists would have made that clear....

A few months before that the FBI foiled the plans of a Right Wing Militia to kidnap and execute the governor of the state I live in (Michigan).

Are people already forgetting about the Caravan of vehicles with Trump flags trying to run Biden's campaign bus off the road?

In addition to all that, the FBI has been warning for years of the inroads that far right extremists (up to and including literal Nazis) have been making in to Law Enforcement agencies across the country.

Edited May 1, 2021 by DocWatts

[Opo]

13 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

@Opo

That is incorrect. You're conflating ending Private Health Insurance with ending all Private Medicine. They are not the same thing.

Yea I was wrong. 

But it's still to the left of other countries. 

7 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Is this a serious question? I would have that that the Jan. 6 Insurrection attempt by MAGA Cultists would have made that clear....

A few months before that the FBI foiled the plans of a Right Wing Militia to kidnap and execute the governor of the state I live in (Michigan).

Are people already forgetting about the Caravan of vehicles with Trump flags trying to run Biden's campaign bus off the road?

In addition to all that, the FBI has been warning for years of the inroads that far right extremists (up to and including literal Nazis) have been making inroads in to Law Enforcement agencies across the country.

I know they tried but I thought they actually succeeded at something and I missed it. 

[DocWatts]

@Opo Sorry if I came across as snarky in my reply, I should try and be more mindful that some of the things that are obvious to people familiar with the US Political landscape, aren't so obvious to people in other parts of the world (or to Americans who don't pay close attention to politics).

The Capitol Rioters were unsuccessful in overturning the results of the 2020 election (though in many ways it was more of a show of force by the far right), with the result that the US Capitol Building was looted and a handful of people lost thier lives. A small handful of rioters were planning on either kidnapping or murdering the US Vice President, plus a handful of Progressive US Congress people (men broke into the office of US Representative Alexandria Ocassio Cortez with the intent of harming her).

The US Capitol Police which were supposed to ve protecting thr building while the election results were being certified, was caught completely unprepared. This is almost certainly due to institutional biases within the organization, which didn't take the high likelihood of violence breaking out as a serious possibility, despite plenty of warning signs and months of mounting violence from Trump's Cult like followers.

[DocWatts]

@Opo I won't dispute that Bernie is to the left of some political parties / candidates in some other countries. But on a pragmatic level what he is advocating for is for the US to become more of a Social Democracy akin to the ones in Western Europe.

[Opo]

57 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

@Opo I won't dispute that Bernie is to the left of some political parties / candidates in some other countries. 

What country is to the left of him? 

[DocWatts]

@Opo

Granted that comparing one person's policy positions to that of an entire country is really imprecise, I'll make my best attempt at it.

Bernie's Drug Policy is not as Progressive as Portugal, which famously decriminalized basically all Drugs and adopted a Harm Reduction approach to dealing with Substance Abuse. While Bernie supports national legalization for marajuana, he's more measured about decriminalizing or legalizing other 'Hard' drugs. He's cautious about the potential downsides of pushing too fast on this issue.

Countries such as Bolivia that have adopted actual Socialism (as opposed to Social Democracy) are to the Left of him.

He's not willing to push quite as far to scale back the Military as Green Parties in several countries. Because he's embedded into the two Party apparatus (a pragmatic reality of actually getting anything done in America), he hasn't pushed hard to adopt a more parliamentarian style system that would allow for more than two political parties.

The Scandanavian Democracies are probably to the Left of him. Less because he doesn't see the wisdom in thier model (he does), but more because making Social Democracy workable in America requires moderating his approach. A %70 income tax on wealthy people would pretty much be dead on arrival in the States.

Edited May 1, 2021 by DocWatts

[roopepa]

Bernie is advocating for healthcare, education and multi-party politics such as in northern europe: Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland.

Even most of the main right-wing parties here in Finland hold free healthcare and education pretty much as a no-brainer.

The US is the wealthiest country in the history of the mankind. The fact that they have to fight over healthcare insurance means that the system is rotted inside-out by lobbyists and propaganda.

Bernie is not radical left.

[trenton]

What I have gathered so far is that terms like "radical left" are used to scare people.  I am not sure what to make of "military Bernie."

 I will try to clarify the subject.

I am attempting to learn how much money is made through exploitation across the globe.  Is it true that socialism for on side is destruction of imperialism for the other side?  How dependent is the U.S. Economy on human rights violations and war crimes?  Is it possible to create a global economy that does not depend on exploitation?

The reason this is important is because politics looks like a zero sum game if other countries and people must be hurt for our benefit.  For example, is it true that rich countries like the U.S. can't exist without poor countries?

I hope this clarifies the topic.

[trenton]

4 minutes ago, roopepa said:

Bernie is advocating for healthcare, education and multi-party politics such as in northern europe: Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland.

Even most of the main right-wing parties here in Finland hold free healthcare and education pretty much as a no-brainer.

The US is the wealthiest country in the history of the mankind. The fact that they have to fight over healthcare insurance means that the system is rotted inside-out by lobbyists and propaganda.

Bernie is not radical left.

You make a good point about the corruption in capitalism.  This is how much it can hurt a single nation.  the fact that I am from the wealthiest nation in history means nothing if economic well being does not translate to human well being.  What I am curious about is how much could capitalist corruption possibly hurt the entire world.  This can include wars.  What is the cost of being the wealthiest nation in the world?

On one other interesting point, there are right-wing conservatives who don't even debate free medical care around the world.  I find that fascinating and foreign given the current state of affairs in the U.S.  Sometimes I think the U.S. Should pay more attention to other countries and ask their leadership why they made the decisions they did and how much has It helped them.

[DocWatts]

11 minutes ago, roopepa said:

Bernie is advocating for healthcare, education and multi-party politics such as in northern europe: Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland.

Even most of the main right-wing parties here in Finland hold free healthcare and education pretty much as a no-brainer.

The US is the wealthiest country in the history of the mankind. The fact that they have to fight over healthcare insurance means that the system is rotted inside-out by lobbyists and propaganda.

Bernie is not radical left.

Just out of curiosity, where would you place someone like Bernie if he were a political candidate within Finland? Centrist? Slightly right or left of Center?

[aurum]

22 hours ago, trenton said:

What radical economic reforms will be necessary in order to stop imperialism and exploitation across the globe?

I’ve said many times on this forum that I think debt and the monetary system should be the first places we look.

Specifically, developing a universal currency that does not add to the debt when it is created. 

This is crucial because debt-based currency is what economists, mostly degrowth economists, refer to as “the growth imperative”. In other words, debt  and our monetary system is what systemically drives the need for endless economic growth.

Endless economic growth will inevitably result in exploitation. So if we are serious about solving imperialism, we need to take a hard look at money itself and how it’s created.

Other ideas I’m in favor of are a UBI, more worker owned businesses, and some amount of relocalization of economic activity.

UBI takes away the “carrot/stick” model we’ve been using to get people to work for hundreds of years. Worker-coops address the inequality and perversive incentives in employer/employee dynamics. And relocalization allows for greater community, resiliency and even connection to the natural world.

There’s more we could talk about, but these seem most essential to me and in many ways are already in the works.

[Opo]

@DocWatts Is it fair to answer my question with nitpicked examples? 

[DocWatts]

@Opo If you want a more generalized take, my sense is that Bernie would probably come across as more of a Centrist in the political environment of the other wealthy Democracies.

As @roopepa pointed out, things that Bernie advocates for (such as Universal Health Care, free College, more equitable Labor Laws that protect the rights of Unions) are relatively uncontroversial among the Social Democracies of the world.

Edited May 1, 2021 by DocWatts

[trenton]

@aurum these are the kinds of responses I am looking for.  The main problem with capitalism is that it is designed to create poverty resulting in governmental corruption and criminal activity.  By UBI do you mean all of humanity or just one country?  

I doubt it would be enough to get rid of the penny and nickel even though these are more expensive to make than the coins themselves.  If the world currency were electronic how would it create debt to make?  This would require a far more advanced cyber security system to pull off as many successful criminals are hackers.  Would an economic system like this stop imperialism?

On 5/1/2021 at 6:38 PM, aurum said:

I’ve said many times on this forum that I think debt and the monetary system should be the first places we look.

Specifically, developing a universal currency that does not add to the debt when it is created. 

This is crucial because debt-based currency is what economists, mostly degrowth economists, refer to as “the growth imperative”. In other words, debt  and our monetary system is what systemically drives the need for endless economic growth.

Endless economic growth will inevitably result in exploitation. So if we are serious about solving imperialism, we need to take a hard look at money itself and how it’s created.

Other ideas I’m in favor of are a UBI, more worker owned businesses, and some amount of relocalization of economic activity.

UBI takes away the “carrot/stick” model we’ve been using to get people to work for hundreds of years. Worker-coops address the inequality and perversive incentives in employer/employee dynamics. And relocalization allows for greater community, resiliency and even connection to the natural world.

There’s more we could talk about, but these seem most essential to me and in many ways are already in the works.

On 5/1/2021 at 5:56 PM, DocWatts said:

 

[aurum]

1 hour ago, trenton said:

By UBI do you mean all of humanity or just one country?  

It be great if we could do it for all of humanity but I don’t feel that is not realistic at the moment. We don’t even have a world currency yet. You’d need some sort of world governing body for such a thing. Or perhaps something totally decentralized, but that also seems unrealistic to me.

Right now the highest UBI can go is the nationstate level.

1 hour ago, trenton said:

I doubt it would be enough to get rid of the penny and nickel even though these are more expensive to make than the coins themselves.  If the world currency were electronic how would it create debt to make? 

This sounds to me like a common misconception.

The debt does not come from us printing nickels and pennies or any physical currency. Physical currency is a tiny percentage of our monetary supply.

The vast majority of the money that is created today is already electronic.

The debt begins to accumulate partially because 1) Money gets loaned into existence by commercial banks and 2) We have a fiat currency with no backing, therefore the monetary supply can expand indefinitely.

That’s an oversimplification but it’s generally correct for the sake of this conversation.

If you want to end the debt you need a much different approach.

One potential solution I’m fond of is tying UBI together with the monetary creation process. In other words, instead of having banks loaning money in existence, money is created through an electronic federal direct deposit (UBI). That means no lending is involved. Add in a control for a demurrage rate and you’ve got almost a complete monetary system.