Why I think permanent Enlightment is not possible

[Javfly33]

I just become conscious that I am never going to reach my idea of Enlightment. 

Because the one who wants to get enlightened is the illusory self. And Enlightment would be to stop being the illusory self

As a self all of my life depends on the illusion of being me!

Trying to become Enlightened is like trying to be dead while alive. It's totally contrary to the survival mechanism.

For God, it's possible to awaken in this lifetime (and it has done already some times), but God comes and goes. It awakens to then sleep again. But for the human avatar which has constructed a self, for that Enlightment is not possible, Because precisely Enlightment is contrary to it. It's precisely the opposite.

So stop trying to get enlightened it's impossible. I have surrender that I will never posses God state of consciousness. Because I as an ego I am literally ego/illusion state of consciousness. If I want God state, I have to stop.being me. But by that point, I don't gain anything because I already "gone" by that point.

So the ego can't ever possess Enlightment. Can't win this prize.

Seek Truth and God. But don't pursue anything Spiritual for your possession because that wanting is precisely the problem.

Just my thoughts, thank you for reading.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Javfly33

[James123]

4 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Trying to become Enlightened is like trying to be dead while alive. It's totally contrary to the survival mechanism.

 

Lol. Thats why enlightenment is realization is the so called ego tries to survive. YOU ARE ALREADY DEATH. Because never born. 

[Forestluv]

This idea of 'enlightenment' reminds me of a dream character. During a dream, I might be a person named 'Paul'. If I awake from the dream, Paul goes *poof* and ceases to exist. Paul cannot have this type of awakening. Within the dream, he can go to meditation retreats, yoga, psychedelics, nonduality teachers, etc. Yet as long as he is Paul, he is still immersed within that dream.

Yet I would say that there is also another type of 'awakening'. Transcendent awareness can arise that "I" am dreaming. Yet, here "I" don't wake up and think "Omigosh, I overslept! I'm late for work!". Rather, the dream continues with transcendent awareness of the dream. This would be lucid dreaming. This type of 'enlightenment' is also possible during 'waking' life. Essentially, lucid dreaming while awake. Here, the dream continues with the dream character, yet there is still a form of 'death' since there is awareness that what was perceived as real is also imaginary. 

 

[Mu_]

12 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

This idea of 'enlightenment' reminds me of a dream character. During a dream, I might be a person named 'Paul'. If I awake from the dream, Paul goes *poof* and ceases to exist. Paul cannot have this type of awakening. Within the dream, he can go to meditation retreats, yoga, psychedelics, nonduality teachers, etc. Yet as long as he is Paul, he is still immersed within that dream.

Yet I would say that there is also another type of 'awakening'. Transcendent awareness can arise that "I" am dreaming. Yet, here "I" don't wake up and think "Omigosh, I overslept! I'm late for work!". Rather, the dream continues with transcendent awareness of the dream. This would be lucid dreaming. This type of 'enlightenment' is also possible during 'waking' life. Essentially, lucid dreaming while awake. Here, the dream continues with the dream character, yet there is still a form of 'death' since there is awareness that what was perceived as real is also imaginary. 

 

I think your on to something.  I like something about the way you phrased this.  I can relate to this more then a traditional view or idea of enlightenment sometimes thrown around, although I can relate to both.  That said, I know there's more to it and have disappeared into stuff that goes beyond language or means I can express as well.

[Tetcher]

@Javfly33 You may be right, if there was such thing as permanent enlightenment we wouldn't be here talking in this creation, the singularity would have already collapsed into eternally still emptiness. There may be an experience of permanent enlightenment but it's not "actually" permanent. Because if someone attained to permanent enlightenment how the rest of the creation can still exist if it's all one ? Individualities can pop but the existence is bubbling new ones constantly and the permanent enlightenment I'm referring to is about the existence not the individualities.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Tetcher

[OctagonOctopus]

It is never what you think it is, it is what is. 

The ego could never, as it is a fragmented imagined thing in You. It is just knots in your Body that can be released, if your desire for the Absolute is strong and pure enough. 

God is already awake in all lifetimes, there are just knots of ego distorting the Truth. Distorting the flow of God from running threw your being. 

You are not the ego. You are God incarnated into the life you are living right now. Release all the knots. Be free. Love 

[OneHandClap]

Well, with all due respect, whether or not you believe in such a thing is not really important.

Looking at Buddhist/nondual teachers who have spent tens of thousands of hours meditating and contemplating, I do feel it is possible. People like Peter Ralston do not depend on drugs to create an enlightenment experience—they are living it. 

One consistent theme I've seen on this forum is that people equate "being with the godhead" (usually inspired by an LSD/mushroom/DMT trip) with "full enlightenment." Full enlightenment is unaffected by causes and conditions. Enlightenment does not mean existing as some transcendent, formless singularity for eternity. Depends on your definition of enlightenment, of course. It is just a word. If we talk about enlightenment as a permanent cessation of suffering and seeing reality clearly, I do believe it is possible. 

[Adamq8]

17 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

@Javfly33 You may be right, if there was such thing as permanent enlightenment we wouldn't be here talking in this creation, the singularity would have already collapsed into eternally still emptiness. There may be an experience of permanent enlightenment but it's not "actually" permanent. Because if someone attained to permanent enlightenment how the rest of the creation can still exist if it's all one ? Individualities can pop but the existence is bubbling new ones constantly and the permanent enlightenment I'm referring to is about the existence not the individualities.

Nice one ? it sorta loops back on it self, constantly. 

Awoke-asleep

The singularity is not really self aware i feel like but goes into process of self awareness and then remembers itself and then it loops back to forgetting and so forth for eternity without beginning and without end.

 

[Javfly33]

@Forestluv Thanks for sharing. I like to hear new possibilities outside my current limited imagination of what Is possible

Are you in this state now? 

[gettoefl]

you have it backwards, it is permanent ego that is not possible

like everything else it comes it goes

your mission is to lengthen the it goes part

egoes, then did go for good

Edited April 30, 2021 by gettoefl

[Breakingthewall]

you say permanent enlightenment is not possible, I suppose you think momentary enlightenment is possible, and you probably would have been there. but if you can be there for a moment, you can also be there permanently. It is a matter of detaching yourself from the ego imo. If you return to the ego, it is because you are attached to it (like me)

[Javfly33]

24 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

you say permanent enlightenment is not possible, I suppose you think momentary enlightenment is possible, and you probably would have been there. but if you can be there for a moment, you can also be there permanently. It is a matter of detaching yourself from the ego imo. If you return to the ego, it is because you are attached to it (like me)

The ego is your life. Without the ego what life you are left with? You would be dead if you be in enlightment 24/7

[SoonHei]

@Javfly33 there is such a thing as a liberation. but it's liberation from a 'you' & not for you... because you're ever liberated.

liberation from the delusion.

consider enlightenment as being aware that the lawn-hose in the front of your house is a hose and not a snake.

you fell into a delusion that it was a snake... and then say you slowly but ultimately came out of it and finally saw that it's not a snake but a hose. that would be the end of it... sort of like once kids know santa aint real - it's a done deal.

 

but sure raises a question... can someone not get knocked on the head by something and then again fall into believing that santa's real? perhaps... so better watch yo surroundings and not get knocked on the head

 

but really. ultimate liberation is to snap-back to reality and come to see your true position as sitting on the sofa watching the tv and playing the video game with the controller in your hand. once you know this, then you go on playing 1 game to the next

 

all the sages talk about the escape from the cycle of birth and death. it's done once and it's forever. then you're forever rooted in witness consciousness as your primary position. then it's an eternal play. an eternal dance.

 

"the fruit ripens slowly but falls suddenly and without return."

[Shin]

43 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

The ego is your life. Without the ego what life you are left with? You would be dead if you be in enlightment 24/7

What do you mean by dead ?

Edited April 30, 2021 by Shin

[SolarWarden]

3 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

I think permanent Enlightenment is not possible

Good to know that you are aware of this mental pattern.

I had an insight years ago that my mind sees the physical as a permanent reality while the non-physical as an illusion.

A typical stage orange thinking. Was probably programmed unconsciously by society to think this way.

Maybe you are unconsciously programmed  to think that "permanent Enlightenment is not possible" by the spiritual community?

Something to think about.

[Javfly33]

4 minutes ago, SolarWarden said:

Good to know that you are aware of this mental pattern.

I had an insight years ago that my mind sees the physical as a permanent reality while the non-physical as an illusion.

A typical stage orange thinking. Was probably programmed unconsciously by society to think this way.

Maybe you are unconsciously programmed  to think that "permanent Enlightenment is not possible" by the spiritual community?

Something to think about.

Thanks for you message but I don't see how my thinking relates to stage orange thinking

[SolarWarden]

16 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Thanks for you message but I don't see how my thinking relates to stage orange thinking

Not saying it is stage orange thinking. It could be anything.

People around us are trying and trying and trying to get enlighetend and seem to fail so we get the impression from them that "enlightenment is not possible" and we unconsciously get that belief ourselves.

Could also be a stage blue shadow thinking patter I.e. projection. Like Enlightenment is only for the buddha or God is only is represented by his son Jesus Christ etc.

Just some speculation. Needed to play with ideas. Have a good day.

 

[Breakingthewall]

5 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Because the one who wants to get enlightened is the illusory self. And Enlightment would be to stop being the illusory self

Yes, this is the problem. The i that's realize that is false and source of suffering, and wants to disappear because he knows he must, but he cannot, since he cannot make himself disappear. If he is trying, he is asserting himself. I believe that with meditation, millimeter by millimeter, he see what he is, his falsehood, and this realized daily weakens the illusion.

 

5 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Trying to become Enlightened is like trying to be dead while alive. It's totally contrary to the survival mechanism

This is the fear of the ego. He can't stop the software, because he thinks stop is death. Again meditation, millimeter by millimeter, educating the ego (the ego educating itself) to see that it can be a quiet moment that is not death, on the contrary, it is life. the ego must want to withdraw, know deeply that it is false and stop being an enemy. I don't see any other way.

5 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Because I as an ego I am literally ego/illusion state of consciousness. If I want God state, I have to stop.being me.

You have to stop being an ego, that is false and that you aren't really. And God state is another egoic projection. I think you know all of this, and you are in the middle of an ego reaction. The thing, i think, is fall in love of the emptiness. It's difficult, the emptiness is threatening. it seems the opposite of life, the ego seems life, color, activity, the void ,death, but it is just the other way around. It is not easy, the ego struggles, but I see that it supports itself less and less, it reveals itself in all its dysfunctionality. begins to assume that he must loosen the hold

Edited April 30, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[Javfly33]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes, this is the problem. The i that's realize that is false and source of suffering, and wants to disappear because he knows he must, but he cannot, since he cannot make himself disappear. If he is trying, he is asserting yourself. I believe that with meditation, millimeter by millimeter, you see what it is, its falsehood, and this realized daily weakens the illusion.

 

This is the fear of the ego. He can't stop the software, because he thinks stop is death. Again meditation, millimeter by millimeter, educating the ego (the ego educating itself) to see that it can be a quiet moment that is not death, on the contrary, it is life. the ego must want to withdraw, know deeply that it is false and stop being an enemy. I don't see any other way.

You have to stop being an ego, that is false and that you aren't really. And God state is another egoic projection. I think you know all of this, and you are in the middle of an ego reaction

Thanks loved each on of your replies ? very juicy.

Time for Meditation it is then 

[Breakingthewall]

@Javfly33 thank you! It's because I'm in the same point than you, but at the end , i start to be the emptiness at least some seconds every day, with meditation. it makes a big difference. The ego reaction is hard too

Edited April 30, 2021 by Breakingthewall