Are memories real? Did the past actually happen?

[Michael Paul]

Ever since I became interested in nonduality, the nature of time and memory has become a central topic for me. I’ve watched a decent amount of Rupert Spira’s videos about time and space, and he makes some interesting points about how we never actually experience time. He often asks questioners to “step out of the now and visit the past”. He doesn’t mean think about the past — he means literally go there. But it’s obvious that this is impossible. The only thing we have of “the past” are memories, but memories are only known insofar as they are experienced now. 

Rupert has a fascinating chapter about time and space in his book The Nature of Consciousness. The chapter’s title is The Memory of Our Eternity and it’s Chapter 16. I’m not going to rehash all of what he says in that chapter here, but in a nutshell he states that consciousness exists eternally here and now, and that time and space are essentially activities of the one infinite, eternal consciousness that has no dimensions. 

I’ve had some pretty intense experiences where I felt like consciousness was beyond time and space both high/tripping and sober, which seem to corroborate Rupert’s model of consciousness, time and space. 

I’m having a hard time grappling with the issue of memories in relation to this understanding, because if time and space do not actually correspond to our experience, then our memories seem like they don’t actually point to real events.

What are your thoughts on this topic?

[LastThursday]

37 minutes ago, Michael Paul said:

then our memories seem like they don’t actually point to real events.

If you drop a pebble into a pond, your memories are like the ripples. The memories are part of the original event not separate from it. This is because the original event was pure imagination in the first place. Looking at the ripples in a pond, you believe that a pebble was dropped into it, but the pebble already disappeared into the water.

[kray]

I think our INTEPRETATION of the past happened. We use our cognitive abilities to interpret the exact senses we feel at a certain point of time, and I guess that's where our memories come from?   

[Someone here]

There is literally nothing but what's happening right now. The past is just a thought in your head.. Which is also happening right now. It's quite radical to realize this but quite obvious as well. 

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Michael Paul said:

The only thing we have of “the past” are memories, but memories are only known insofar as they are experienced now. 

Along these lines, there isn't even a "now". . . A "now" requires a past / future as contrast. Without a past / future timeline, now disappears. It no longer makes any sense to use the term "now". 

[Someone here]

9 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Along these lines, there isn't even a "now". . . A "now" requires a past / future as contrast. Without a past / future timeline, now disappears. It no longer makes any sense to use the term "now". 

No. You can't deny the now because obviously here it is. However we don't need future \ past timeline because it's quite literally doesn't exist in direct experience anywhere else but in the now. Now is evident and undeniable and it doesn't need a past to be now as opposed to it. Imagine this moment is completely contextless and happening nowhere and no when. 

[Forestluv]

21 minutes ago, Someone here said:

No. You can't deny the now because obviously here it is. However we don't need future \ past timeline because it's quite literally doesn't exist in direct experience anywhere else but in the now. Now is evident and undeniable and it doesn't need a past to be now as opposed to it. Imagine this moment is completely contextless and happening nowhere and no when. 

"Now" relative to what? 

If all there is is "Now", then there is no "Not Now". Without a "Not Now", there is no "Now". . .

Without a past / future for contrast, "Now" collapses and is the same as "Reality", "Infinity", "ISness", "Nothing", "Everything" etc. Yet that is not how people are using the term "Now". They are using it like the phrase "The present moment". 

[Someone here]

@Forestluv I wanna make sure it's not a matter of disagreement over words. You can use the word "now" or "present moment" or "infinity" or tuna sandwich if you like... It's pointing to the same thing. Direct experience. a look at your hands .. That's what I mean by "now". 

22 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Now" relative to what

Not relative to anything. Now is an absolute. It exists but without any contrast. Can you find a contrast to direct experience?

"the past" is just a thought appearing as now.

The past is really just memory. And what are memories? Thoughts. And what are thoughts? They are Now. So when you get down to it.. The past is now lol. 

22 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Without a past / future for contrast, "Now" collapses and is the same as "Reality", "Infinity", "ISness", "Nothing", "Everything" etc.

I think I agree.. As I said it's not a matter of semantics. ISness is what I mean by now. 

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, Someone here said:

ISness is what I mean by now. 

That is not how 99.99% of people use the term "now", including spiritual people.

In the OP, replace every instance of "now" with ISness. Imo, that is a recontextualization. The OP is clearly using the term "now" in the context of time (past and future).

Nothing wrong with that, I'm super fascinated by time. I wish Leo had the time to do a video on it. 

2 hours ago, Michael Paul said:

the nature of time and memory has become a central topic for me. I’ve watched a decent amount of Rupert Spira’s videos about time and space, and he makes some interesting points about how we never actually experience time. He often asks questioners to “step out of ISness and visit the past”. He doesn’t mean think about the past — he means literally go there. But it’s obvious that this is impossible. The only thing we have of “the past” are memories, but memories are only known insofar as they are experienced ISness. 

 in a nutshell Rupert states that consciousness exists eternally here and ISness, and that time and space are essentially activities of the one infinite, eternal consciousness that has no dimensions. 

I’ve had some pretty intense experiences where I felt like consciousness was beyond time and space both high/tripping and sober, which seem to corroborate Rupert’s model of consciousness, time and space. 

 

[Someone here]

40 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

40 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

That is not how 99.99% of people use the term "now", including spiritual people. 

I know. They mean it in a timely way. 

41 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I'm super fascinated by time. I wish Leo had the time to do a video on it 

. Lol.  Me too. 

'Some years ago' before having any moments of altered consciousness but I already had meditated for a while and listened some Leo, s videos of questioning beliefs/spirituality...etc.. I was with my father in a village near my city and we were looking at a roman bridge.. and I suddenly got this intuition/insight downloaded inside my mind.. and I said to him "Do you realize that we actually haven't  been in the roman empire/we only have lived since x years.. so we really haven't had in real proof that romans existed?" "Ye.. the proof astronomically but it just feels from our experience there is also 0% proof that they existed".

Do they?

If time is non-existent.. reality exists since "I" was born. So my consciousness has created a story about a "past",.which created the culture I live in (which also a creation of consciousness)

Romans existed but only in my hallucination..didn´t they?

In the moment consciousness stopped creating a story about romans and an historical past, there are no romans anymore.. right?

actually contemplate this.. How do you know you were even born or had a childhood? 

Even if you have video evidence of your mother giving birth to you.. it proves nothing. That would be you looking at a baby being born and identifying with it as you - but that thing on the screen is not you. The baby being born in the video is a facsimile and a mirage on magnetic tape 

To know if you were born you would very literally have to go back in time and re-experience at first hand being born. So.. the problem is: there is no time. All other evidence is second hand and not to be trusted no matter how convincing.

"Romans" is just a concept i have.. made up of hundreds of little interconnected factoids. Romans for me.. exist right now,.. as a mental web of concepts. All I'm doing is identifying the concept "Romans" with the concept "Past"

[Forestluv]

@Someone here

Great stuff. Timelessness opens up so many avenues. 

There is a video of a man that lost his memory. He only had 8 seconds of memory. There was a scene in the documentary in which he would write "This is NOW. I am awake!". Then later he would scratch that out and write "No, THIS is NOW. THIS is my first moment!! This is the REAL one!", then cross it out and have another first moment. This went on hundreds of times in the notebook.

It gave me chills. Sometimes I realize "This is NOW!" and then later realize "No, This is NOW!". If the mind has a timeline of memories, it can get grounded. Yet when it gets really ungrounded, it can almost feel like psychosis. 

 

[The0Self]

@Forestluv This.

It can be a fun practice too. Realizing all your memories can’t possibly be accurate and the now will be interpreted at a supposed later moment as something other than what it is. Can cause the whole belief/memory complex to get a little shaky. Is this now? Is it instantly turning into a false slightly altered memory? It’s like there is no now as opposed to some other moment in time — there is only THE moment.

Edited April 23, 2021 by The0Self

[Dazgwny]

I’m not even sure if this relates tbh. But I had a dream where I went on holiday for 10 days. I lived the full 10 days. Or it certainly felt that way. I woke up, obviously the following morning and was like wtf was that. I even checked my phone to see the time and date to make sure it was the following day. Which of course it was, I’d just had a normal nights 7-8 hour sleep or whatever it was. But I have memories from that dream of the whole 10 days from coming out the airport to heading back to it 10 days later. Still I think that was fucking mental. How on earth could I experience 10 days in 8 hours. For me it was just like well if that doesn’t prove to myself that time is relative then nothing will. Conclusion, time and memories are absolute bollocks. Not that I understand totally how it works but there could be nothing more clear to me when it comes to time

[James123]

@Michael Paul where is your memories? 

[blankisomeone]

Oh god the real vs. not-real debate again...

Edited April 23, 2021 by blankisomeone

[Mason Riggle]

@blankisomeone

[blankisomeone]

On 21/04/2021 at 7:21 PM, Michael Paul said:

He doesn’t mean think about the past — he means literally go there. But it’s obvious that this is impossible.

It’s possible, sort of haha

It’s like visualization. When you do it right you ACTUALLY do it. Like, when you visualize yourself in a place YOU ACTUALLY GO THERE. You don’t “imagine” the place... you ACTUALLY go there?

I was playing with “imagination” once... I was trying to really SEE a bird. I imagined myself ACTUALLY seeing the bird. Then I put on some audio of birds fluttering their wings. I closed my eyes and LOOKED at a bird, effortlessly, I wasn’t forcing anything... And then I got to a point where I swear to fucking god, that if I had a little bit more power the freaking bird would materialize right in front of me right then and there...

The bird wasn’t “in my head somewhere”... It was sort of taking form right out of my consciousness and it was in “physical space/field of consciousness”, dunno how to describe (It happened quick though, I wasn’t able to hold it for long because I got too excited and distracted)

Edited April 23, 2021 by blankisomeone

[Globalcollective]

yes exactly, hence why this realisation can bring an end to all kinds of suffering and trauma from the past as it didn't happen in the way you thought it did, this was a big insight for me and a head fk

[Leo Gura]

On 4/21/2021 at 3:21 PM, Michael Paul said:

then our memories seem like they don’t actually point to real events.

Reality is whatever you imagine.

Your memories, just like the Earth you think you're sitting on, is imaginary.

EVERYTHING is imaginary! There is nothing outside of imagination. Imagination IS reality. If you remember that you went to school, you imagine that you went to school, and thus you create the school!

School only exists in your mind. EVERYTHING only exists in your mind. You are God dreaming. This is a dream. The end.

Right now you are imagining that there is a guy named Rupert Spira who wrote a book about consciousness that you read.

IT'S A FUCKING DREAM!

Ta-da!

The past happened if you imagine it did.

[WaveInTheOcean]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Reality is whatever you imagine.

Your memories, just like the Earth you think you're sitting on, is imaginary.

EVERYTHING is imaginary! There is nothing outside of imagination. Imagination IS reality. If you remember that you went to school, you imagine that you went to school, and thus you create the school!

School only exists in your mind. EVERYTHING only exists in your mind. You are God dreaming. This is a dream. The end.

Right now you are imagining that there is a guy named Rupert Spira who wrote a book about consciousness that you read.

IT'S A FUCKING DREAM!

Ta-da!

The past happened if you imagine it did.

Clear and to the point. I might start a youtube channel soon called Infinite Imagination where I talk for days about this, so much fun existence is?