Does Success Hurt Woman's Dating Chances

[Raptorsin7]

@soos_mite_ah If there was a community of advances aliens who figured out lots of problems we are struggling with I would hope they would help us

[Consept]

4 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

I don't know where these statistics are coming from and what are all the factors that are at play.

Research it for 5 mins and you'll see the statistics, again this thing of black women not getting married is a recent thing, pre-1960 the marriage rates in the black community were higher in some respects than white people - 

4 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

But I do know that women as a whole are more likely to stay single or get divorced now because they have the means of living independently which means they won't have to stick around with a man who is not good for them for their survival. And I think that is a step in the right direction because a woman shouldn't have to put up with toxic of abusive behaviors because she can't financially stand on her two feet outside of a relationship

 So here is the first assumption, anytime a woman gets divorced the man is abusive and toxic. Yes I'm sure that some are, but the vast majority aren't and also is it just specifically black men that are toxic? Why are the marriage rates for other races not as low? 

Also do you think it's just men that are toxic and not women, 40% of domestic abusers are reported to be women https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

(keep in mind most men don't even report it) 

But yet around 80% of divorces are triggered by women, so I don't think all those divorces are women running away from abusive men, I'm sorry. 

4 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Socioeconomic status and weight/ health issues are correlated in that richer people tend to be healthier overall

True but black women were a lot poorer previously when the marriage rates were better, they were also in a lot better shape, so again this argument doesn't track when you compare it history. 

4 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Are they actually being dominated or are they perceiving the domination?

Having dated and been around black women and whose friends are married to black women, I would say yes they are more dominant than other races. Not all as I've dated some more submissive black women and I didn't perceive them as dominant because they were black. Its not a perception thing its a direct experience thing. There's also the report that I posted giving actual black mens opinions on this. 

By the way every one of your posts is a way of absolving black women of any kind of accountability, whilst also putting the blame on black men. I don't think this is really the best way to address the real issues going on. At some point black women have to look at what is their part in the reason why there are so many single parent raised kids, that might include but not be limited to, not choosing the wrong man to procreate with. 

Also your argument that this is all down to racism doesn't track either. Racism has gotten better through the years whilst this situation has gotten worse. So by that trend, even if racism was completely gone this issue still wouldn't be solved. 

 

[Etherial Cat]

7 hours ago, Consept said:

Research it for 5 mins and you'll see the statistics, again this thing of black women not getting married is a recent thing, pre-1960 the marriage rates in the black community were higher in some respects than white people - 

12 hours ago, Consept said:

Many of your points are correct but im not sure about the conclusions you draw. As i understand what you said in the first paragraph is that black women cant be vulnerable enough to let a man look after them and so this explains why many dont get married today. But when you look at stats 62% of black women were married in the 1950s, now keep in mind whatever issues black women have today, they were at least 10x harder in the 50s, we're talking about a time when black people as a whole couldnt go to universities, were discriminated heavily in every aspect of society. So if we follow this as society has somewhat improved (although not perfect) with issues of race you would expect that these numbers would improve, even if we say marriages are somewhat out of fashion at least you would expect if children are involved both parents are around. But this is not the case in 1995 the number fell from 62% to 38%, to compare white married women went from 66% to 59% in the same time period. This has gotten even worse now and i think its around 20% for black women. So the question is why were black women able to let a man look after them when times were even harder but now as times are at least easier than before, they cant?

18 hours ago, Consept said:

Im learning as well but looking into it marriage has been on a decline but black womens decline is much steeper. If we just look at how many black women are married regardless of what race theyre married to, it was only 34% (women between 25 and 54) compared with 67% of white women same age, this was in 2006, and the gap between black and white women has grown even more since then, and was declining before then. The amount of black children in a single parent household is 54% compared to white children at only 22%. So these are massive gaps and ive got to say family and home life has to be the biggest factor not only in the success of the child, but mental health, propensity to criminality and many more crucial things. This is not just a social violence issue, although it couldve stemmed from that, although i dont even think thats a good reason as family this is the worst its ever been despite there being a lot more social violence back in the day.

 https://voxeu.org/article/incarceration-unemployment-and-black-white-marriage-gap-us

 

I've read the paper and the stats. While it's quite interesting, none of them give us enough data and context to answer the question "why are black women no longer getting married to black men as much as before".

So unless we'd spend the time to properly research the subject, I don't think we can draw any conclusions here.

An important factor that comes to my mind is that until 1960s America was dominated by a stage Blue role model which would act as stage Blue standard enforcer. Wedding are a central institution in the stage Blue development, so it's only logical that they'd be many more of them in these time than now.

Also the fact that survival was so though in the past would have as an effect that you'd turn pretty much a blind eye to terrible dysfunction in it for the sake of keeping a situation. So to me though survival conditions are much likely to create a situation where you've got little time to reflect about what you want or what your standards are because your'e too busy keeping yourself alive.

1960 is also the turning point where both the civil right movement AND the second waves of femininism emerge, which better both the condition of black people and the condition of women in general. 

18 hours ago, Consept said:

Yes youre right it is also important for girls to have a father figure, i didnt mean to diminish that, i just think its slightly more important for boys to have a healthy role male model.

I still disagree there, I think it is equally important. Not having a father figure to protect you and teach you to have boundaries will lead to serious vulnerabilities when it comes to interacting with the opposite sex. And eventually chose a mate.

Both parent are important because they teach us how to have a proper relationship with the masculine and the feminine. Miss one and you're out of balance. Whether you're a boy or a girl.

7 hours ago, Consept said:

Having dated and been around black women and whose friends are married to black women, I would say yes they are more dominant than other races. Not all as I've dated some more submissive black women and I didn't perceive them as dominant because they were black. Its not a perception thing its a direct experience thing. There's also the report that I posted giving actual black mens opinions on this. 

By the way every one of your posts is a way of absolving black women of any kind of accountability, whilst also putting the blame on black men. I don't think this is really the best way to address the real issues going on. At some point black women have to look at what is their part in the reason why there are so many single parent raised kids, that might include but not be limited to, not choosing the wrong man to procreate with. 

Also your argument that this is all down to racism doesn't track either. Racism has gotten better through the years whilst this situation has gotten worse. So by that trend, even if racism was completely gone this issue still wouldn't be solved. 

 

No. Black women are not per se more dominant than other races. What get them perceived as more dominant and angry is because they've got to deal with everyone's bullshit and dehumanization. 

Fighting off humanities ignorance away from running your life is a though job and you've got not choice but to stand out each time someone's unconscious or conscious devilry is trying exploit you, spread misguided narratives or step on your foot with their blind spots. 

If I take the example of this forum, I'm spending a lot of my time helping both the feminine perspective and the race perspectives/misconceptions. If I were not subject to these two realities, I could turn a blind eye to it and not engage in any of these political discussions.

White women can sign off when misconception is occurring about race. I can't.  Also, they can be consciously or unconsciously perpetrators of racism.

Black men can sign off when misconception is occurring about gender. I can't. Also, they can be consciously or unconsciously perpetrators of sexism.

So from an optical point of view, one could think "hey this girl loves to give her opinion and get into all conflicts"! But it's just not the case. My reality involves just more causes to actively tackle. 

And do people think that I am a non-feminine, aggressive trouble-maker while I'm handling the mountain of human bullshit in my daily life? Very much so. But it's often because they compare my behavior with women who are not dealing with the same life experience as I do.

The truth is, black women are treated differently than other women as we are at the intersection between race and sexism.

12 hours ago, Consept said:

Also another interesting statistic, 4 out of 5 black women are overweight -  https://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2012/11/29/why-are-four-out-of-five-black-women-obese Now there are debatable valid reasons for this but as we've mentioned, this is a factor for mens attraction to women in general. So obviously if women are more attractive they are more likely to attract a partner. But my point in bringing this up is that at some point there has to be some kind of personal accountability taken. As i said youre not wrong about your points but no one is going to change these outcomes except the people involved. I think at the very least a bit of weight loss or exercise on a shallow level or on a deeper level choosing the right men to have kids with, trying to make it easy for the man to be in the kids life even if you broke up with him. 

Also on your point about self hatred from black men for dating outside their race, for one any other race can date outside their race and it not be called self hatred, but for two black women can be harder to deal with, not all of course but if as a man youve had an experience where black women have dominated you, it can, perceivably, be an easier life to be with a white, latina, or asian woman. As youve mentioned there are reasons for women being like this but either way men might not want to deal with it. Another form of taking responsibility could be to go to therapy. 

You might be interested in some of the results from this qualitative study on why black women are disproportionately single, they interviewed 100 or so black men to get their opinions, here are some highlights - 

--Seventy-three percent of the respondents in the gender relations category indicated that the Black woman’s approach to men is misguided, as it relates to patterns of pursuing a man for a relationship and not exhibiting ladylike behavior (e.g., cursing, wearing revealing clothing) (n=2), setting standards too high and placing more value on men who can offer material possessions and status (n=12), engaging in controlling behavior (n=2), lowering their standards to attract a man’s affection (n=4), and not being approachable (e.g., not friendly, bad attitude) (n=10).

-- Victor, a 32-year old who had been married for 5 years, agreed: “There’s not really a shortage of men out there. It’s that some of the women are raising their standards so high that they are missing out on that person for them.” Paul, 32 years of age and married for 5 years, concurred: “[Women] look [at] what’s on the outside and not what’s on the inside. They [are] not looking at their character; they [do not] care about looking at what they [are] made of [on] the inside.”  Forty-eight-year-old Xavier, married for 24 years, summed up his thoughts with, “You’ve got women who are not married; there’s two ends to that pull. You’ve got [those with] high standards and [who look] down at all the guys, then you’ve got the other end, where, you know, anybody will do.”

-- Other men observed controlling behavior among women. For instance, Isaac, 40 years of age and married for 11 years, said, “When I was single, and a lot of my single guys talk about [this], a lot of women that I chose not to marry, it dealt a lot with controlling us…You need to do this, this, this, this, this, that…They wanted to control you and shape you to be what they wanted you to be.” 

-- In 37% of the men’s views, some independent women believe that they don’t need a man (n=15). Quinn, married for 7 years and 35 years of age, said, “They got [it] in their mind [from] this independence song [referring to song titled, Independent by Webbie, Lil Phat, and Lil Boosie] that they can do it by their self. Can’t nobody do it by themselves.” Ricky, 34 years of age and married for 5 years, agreed: “The role of ‘I don’t need anything but myself’ has been contributing to the fact that a lot of women are looking past the benefits of marriage.” The men also described a lack of knowledge among Black women about how to share the responsibility for managing a household with a mate, having spent years without a partner or a model

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4465800/ 

Go down to the results and youll get a lot of answers to what we're talking about  

There is also a correlation between emotional distress and an unhealthy relationship to food. People can comfort eat as a coping mechanism.

And there is also a correlation between being overweight and wanting to protect oneself from a hostile external world by adding layers of fat between you and others. A lot of victims of abuse can subconsciously make themself look unattractive to keep away people from them.

The connection between the body mind is not to be ignored. Nor the connection between someone's mental health and collective abuse or stress.I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of black women are victim of a terrible cocktail which mix poverty, low-self esteem, and emotional distress.

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Etherial Cat

[Consept]

21 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

An important factor that comes to my mind is that until 1960s America was dominated by a stage Blue role model which would act as stage Blue standard enforcer. Wedding are a central institution in the stage Blue development, so it's only logical that they'd be many more of them in these time than now.

Also the fact that survival was so though in the past would have as an effect that you'd turn pretty much a blind eye to terrible dysfunction in it for the sake of keeping a situation. So to me though survival conditions are much likely to create a situation where you've got little time to reflect about what you want or what your standards are because your'e too busy keeping yourself alive.

1960 is also the turning point where both the civil right movement AND the second waves of femininism emerge, which better both the condition of black people and the condition of women in general. 

The assumption here is that most people that were married in the 60s were in a toxic situation, we really dont know that to be true i dont know what the numbers are but im guessing most people that say thats the case dont know either so im always curious as to why its the case that this is the default belief. Especially taking into consideration how dysfunctional and how many broken families there are at the moment, surely this is a worse situation for kids than previously. I think its great that there is freedom and you dont have to get married and theres not as much social pressure, however when it comes to kids even if you dont get married its really on you to stay together, if you dont think thats very likely or the dad is a deadbeat or whatever, then you really have no business having kids. I mean you can but single parent households have really been the root of so many problems in the black community, so there has to be some responsibility on the womans part as she is in control of who she reproduces with. 

 

30 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

No. Black women are not per se more dominant than other races.

There are reasons for it but it is what it is. Also if they are angry at the world why does that also get turned on the man that theyre with? Remember its black men who are trying to be in relationships with black women that are saying this, i dont think it should be so swiftly discounted. Also if they are angry about things or theyve had traumatic histories, which im not denying, then why not look into counseling or therapy? 

 

33 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Fighting off humanities ignorance away from running your life is a though job and you've got not choice but to stand out each time someone's unconscious or conscious devilry is trying exploit you or spread misguided narratives. 

If I take the example of this forum, I'm spending a lot of my time helping both the feminine perspective and the race perspectives/misconceptions. If I were not subject to these two realities, I could turn a blind eye to it and not engage in any discussions.

White women can sign off when misconception is occurring about race. I can't.  Also, they can be consciously or unconsciously perpetrators of racism.

Black men can sign off when misconception is occurring about gender. I can't. Also, they can be consciously or unconsciously perpetrators of sexism.

And do people think that I am a non-feminine, aggressive trouble-maker while I'm handling the mountain of human bullshit in my daily life?

Very much so. But it is unfair to compare my behavior with women who are not dealing with the same life experience as I do.

The truth is, black women are treated differently than other women, and it's been often much poorly .

Yes its true there are racial issues, ive had to deal with plenty myself. But if you take a person for an example, lets say theyve been dealt a bad hand, they didnt have a good upbringing, theyve had to deal with racism etc the result of which has meant theyre unhappy and tired of dealing with this stuff, what are their options? Is it to tell everyone to treat them better or is it to see what they can change, how they can improve and how they can truly grow as a person? Now in my experience whatever hand your dealt you will always be better off improving yourself because no ones going to do it. So lets say we sort out racism and sexism completely do you think thats suddenly going to mean black women start choosing better partners, lose weight, stop having kids with men that wont stay around etc etc? These are internal changes and you dont need racism and sexism to stop to start doing them. Yes work on systemic change but i dont understand this thing of not working on yourself because of racism. 

40 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

There is also a correlation between emotional distress and an unhealthy relationship to food. People can comfort eat as a coping mechanism.

And there is also a correlation between being overweight and wanting to protect oneself from a hostile external world by adding layers of fat between you and others. A lot of victims of abuse can subconsciously make themself look unattractive to keep away people from them.

The connection between the body mind is not to be ignored. Not the connection between someone's mental health and collective abuse or stress.I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of black women are victim of a terrible cocktail which mix poverty, low-self esteem, and emotional distress.

The other thing with the sexist and racism, not to downplay it, but black women are doing the best that theyve ever done career wise, financially, they are one of the most educated groups (much more than men). So again im not denying that racism exists, of course i know first hand, but if black women are able to educate themselves, have kids by themselves etc and when they do it, its all them, it was their choice, theyre independent. But then when it comes to keeping a healthy weight or having kids with a decent partner, its black mens fault or its societies fault. It doesnt make sense to me. 

This video is an example of what i mean, feel free to give your opinion on it -

 

[wwhy]

21 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

In my case, I've not felt that shortage in the USA.  Curiously, this stage Green culture in the cities and social circles I've been in seems to have flourished into a crazy melting pots where POCs are very much accepted and found to be good looking by multiple races. New York, L.A or San Fran especially comes to mind.

I've been approached there mostly by white and black men, mixed races ones and then even some eastern asian or middle eastern. So I'm not sure where it's gone wrong in terms of stats. 

Mixed raced people (whatever the mix) are usually way above average in the looks department. Nature is trying to tell us something here..

[wwhy]

19 hours ago, Consept said:

Black women of course would want to better their position but the ones that are successful are already in a good position and are not even considering good men because they dont earn enough. Other black women are choosing men that are not going to be around or are just generally not good choices, having kids with them and then raising the kids as single mothers, this is a massive problem and is the cause of a lot of problems. You can blame men for not being good but the women are ultimately in charge of choosing who they reproduce with, also a lot of men that 'arent any good' probably also came from single parent households, so its a never ending cycle.

They may be in charge of who they reproduce (have sex with), but not so much in charge of who they have long-term stable relationships with. The men have much more say there.

[Consept]

2 minutes ago, wwhy said:

They may be in charge of who they reproduce (have sex with), but not so much in charge of who they have long-term stable relationships with. The men have much more say there.

Right so dont have kids until youre in a long term stable relationship or married, that would be the obvious solution here 

[wwhy]

 

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Lol! This then that.

Too bad she isn't around anymore.. she must have been a treat.

Edited April 26, 2021 by wwhy
pic upload

[wwhy]

14 hours ago, Consept said:

Interesting debate that i thought was relevant to this thread -

 

Watching the other quiet ones in this clash is so funny. I like the blond with the white top best, her expression is like "whooooosssshhh!!". It's all flying way over her head...

[wwhy]

13 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

I don't know where these statistics are coming from and what are all the factors that are at play. But I do know that women as a whole are more likely to stay single or get divorced now because they have the means of living independently which means they won't have to stick around with a man who is not good for them for their survival. And I think that is a step in the right direction because a woman shouldn't have to put up with toxic of abusive behaviors because she can't financially stand on her two feet outside of a relationship.

Considering divorce rates (let's forget about those who did not even get to the marriage stage) are almost 50%.... what does this even mean? And what does it say about human nature as a whole? Does it mean at-least 50% of women in past generations were just whoring themselves for survival? What about the men then? Did they are just want sex slaves under their beck and call? Is this how we imagine the relationship between men and women is at its core? That we're like parasite feeding off each other for whatever we can get, every man, woman and dog for itself?

[wwhy]

51 minutes ago, Consept said:

Right so dont have kids until youre in a long term stable relationship or married, that would be the obvious solution here 

And visa-versa. Don't go impregnating all the hotties if you aren't ready to settle with them. Wear a condom! Because when we all do not do that... we all limit our future options.

Edited April 26, 2021 by wwhy

[Consept]

16 minutes ago, wwhy said:

And visa-versa. Don't go impregnating all the hotties if you aren't ready to settle with them. Wear a condom! Because when we all do not do that... we all limit our future options.

Come one you know this isnt a good argument, a man is not having sex with any woman that doesnt want it, if he does its rape and hes going to prison. The onus is definitely on the woman to select a man that is going to be around for the kids, its the womans and the kids life that is going to be affected the most so she should be extra cautious about who shes procreating with. There are guys that are not going to be good fathers walking around trying to have sex with girls, that is always going to happen, its the women that have to choose the right ones if they want to have kids with them. 

If i knock up some random woman and it turns out shes not a good mother and she does onlyfans and has no qualities that would be conducive to being a wife or mother and she actually is trying to drain me of as much money as she can, then is it her fault she exists or is it my fault for not getting to know her better and wrapping up? I cant say 'ah you know its the womans fault', come one bro 

[Shin]

1 hour ago, wwhy said:

Mixed raced people (whatever the mix) are usually way above average in the looks department. Nature is trying to tell us something here..

European Asiatic and European Arabic.

YUMMY IN MY TUMMY !

Edited April 26, 2021 by Shin

[wwhy]

1 hour ago, Consept said:

There are guys that are not going to be good fathers walking around trying to have sex with girls, that is always going to happen, its the women that have to choose the right ones if they want to have kids with them. 

If i knock up some random woman and it turns out shes not a good mother and she does onlyfans and has no qualities that would be conducive to being a wife or mother and she actually is trying to drain me of as much money as she can, then is it her fault she exists or is it my fault for not getting to know her better and wrapping up? I cant say 'ah you know its the womans fault', come one bro 

Hey. All am saying, is that as a man you are not this powerless slave to the power of a pussy. You can choose to always wear a condom, you can choose to abstain until you find the right girl. Stop acting like women are this super-human beings in full control of their impulses and urges, and men are these hopeless victims that cannot help getting their dicks moist with whatever is presented to them. Wear a condom, or just say no! You will not self combust and explode if you do so...

[Consept]

18 minutes ago, wwhy said:

Hey. All am saying, is that as a man you are not this powerless slave to the power of a pussy. You can choose to always wear a condom, you can choose to abstain until you find the right girl. Stop acting like women are this super-human beings in full control of their impulses and urges, and men are these hopeless victims that cannot help getting their dicks moist with whatever is presented to them. Wear a condom, or just say no! You will not self combust and explode if you do so...

OK well guys are gonna do it if they're given a chance, that's the reality, especially the ones that don't care about looking after a family, so I guess females are screwed, literally, and they're gonna have kids with guys who can't look after them. 

[Etherial Cat]

@Consept

I think you could benefit from being a tad more compassionate and bridge your perspective towards black women's hardship. 

It seems like you have a lot of grievances and expectations on what they should do or be.

I certainly don't think these women deserve so much balme. When you understand what cause certain factors (being overweight, being a single mum, or angry ) the reality behind it is far more complex than "fix this, you're being faulty".

It's often the tree that hides a forrest.

[wwhy]

24 minutes ago, Consept said:

OK well guys are gonna do it if they're given a chance, that's the reality, especially the ones that don't care about looking after a family, so I guess females are screwed, literally, and they're gonna have kids with guys who can't look after them. 

hey... you have a choice! No one says you have to stick your dick into crazy... are you really that thirsty and desperate? You will be much better off buying yourself a sex-doll (one time payment) than paying child support fot 18 years just because you wanted to get your dick wet for 3 minutes! No wonder women feel most men are idiots (and they too, are idiots for letting idiots impregnate them). Idiots all the way down!

[Consept]

@Etherial Cat

I havent got grievences or expectations, believe it or not my position actually comes from compassion. I have a lot of black women in my life that I care about and when I look at actual solutions really its not about fault but it is about taking accountability to do what you can about your situation. Yes there are reasons, valid reasons for the position people find themselves in but if you're not happy with it, you have to find a way to change it. If we spend all our time looking at the reasons and not the things that we can actually change, nothing will change. 

I have an uncle whose an alcoholic, the whole family enable him and tell him he's not really an alcoholic and minimise the issue, say things like 'it's cos your wife left you' or 'it's understandable as you're having trouble finding work'. Now these things are true and could be good reasons to drink but do they actually help him get out of his position or do the enable him to stay there?

Ive had a lot of issues growing up with family, I want to feel different, I want my life to be positive and be a good influence on those around me. My options are doing the hard work of introspection and therapy and whatever else or focusing on my family issues, obviously I'm gonna choose the hard Road. But I do accept its difficult to take that road, but at the very least we shouldn't make it so easy not to 

[Consept]

3 minutes ago, wwhy said:

hey... you have a choice! No one says you have to stick your dick into crazy... are you really that thirsty and desperate? You will be much better off buying yourself a sex-doll (one time payment) than paying child support fot 18 years just because you wanted to get your dick wet for 3 minutes! No wonder women feel most men are idiots (and they too, are idiots for letting idiots impregnate them). Idiots all the way down!

You know I'm not talking about myself right ? 

All I'm saying is women have a lot more at stake when it comes to this and they are also in control of access. But anyway if you don't get the point that's fine. 

[wwhy]

2 minutes ago, Consept said:

You know I'm not talking about myself right ?

I love you my brother... but who are you talking for here then? You're drunken uncle? The stereotypical black man? who?