Does Success Hurt Woman's Dating Chances

[Raptorsin7]

@intotheblack Would you say most woman in your life support you for not being very career driven? Or is there a stigma the other way now, where woman are expected to be career focused.

[Zeroguy]

3 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@intotheblack @Preety_India I understand that, that wasn't really my point.

You are perfectly fine. Don't get dragged by women. Don't listen to them. Follow your natural instincts and your natural way of thinking. It's same for all man. 

Grow up and work on yourself and I bet you'll become magnet for them. 

What they talk doesn't correspond to what they are attracted to and their behaivor. 

[Parththakkar12]

Another thing about the 'passion for your career being attractive' - This is masculine energy. The passionate pursuit of something. It is masculine energy that women, especially women who value money and success, find attractive in men. These women may tend to be successful and driven themselves, which points to the fact that they'd value these things in a man.

However, as someone who is driven towards success myself, I can say that the career-driven energy or the 'hunter energy' or the 'shark energy' in a woman isn't attractive to me. Me being success-oriented myself doesn't mean that I'm going to be attracted to that kind of energy in a woman! Don't get me wrong, I value myself a competent partner and I would be more than willing to give her a role in my growth-process and in the relationship. In fact, this would be the way to handle a competent, success-oriented woman and this would be the alternative to the patriarchy - to give her a role in which her competence is valued.

Having a well-developed masculinity can definitely help you be more of a woman, even if the masculinity itself isn't attractive to a masculine man. There is a big difference though between being career-driven and 'doing it all' yourself, which is a masculine thing to do, and to use your understanding of masculinity to discern which guy truly is inherently powerful in his masculinity and which guy isn't. Which guy to trust and which guy to not trust. Remember that trust is a choice. This is the power of femininity. Femininity is not weakness! You can use your masculinity to empower yourself as a feminine woman. It's not the success that's unattractive or the drive. It's the 'independence'. That kills the relationship.

Edit - An example of this kind of alternative system to the patriarchy would be - a provider husband who gives a competent wife an active role in his success-chasing pursuits. This is more of a hands-off, indirect role as opposed to a direct, active role, like employee, employer, business-partner, etc. She won't be working with him for a paycheck, she'll be provided for by him. No pressure in the role of a providee! Your bills are taken care of, the pressure of paying your bills isn't on your head. Having said that, her competence will be valued and she can actively be involved in the process of creating that success. What this means is that she isn't powerlessly dependent on him for what she wants, she will be playing an active role in creating her own success and her own abundance, through the relationship. She could get paid too if she wants! Those specifics can vary. Or, if handling money is too much for her, she could let the husband take care of it. The point being, creating this flexibility would be an alternative to the patriarchy in which the providee/wife is much more empowered in the context of money.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[Consept]

24 minutes ago, intotheblack said:

@Parththakkar12 @Raptorsin7 

yeah I know what you are saying. 
personally, I have never had this strive for success. women around me were always quite career focused, so I actually assumed this is just a lazy trait of mine. But I’m also not the most confident person so that adds to it. I have good work ethic, but I have no desire to try and have a huge career.  I want to make money by being creative, but I’m happy for a man to take the reigns. An ideal situation for me would be a joint business, like having a shop, but i would want to do that with my partner, not alone.  
I’m not against a man taking the lead if it’s in a healthy way. 

By the way this is really healthy, I also think it would be great to have a business with a partner where they handle the creative side and I handle the business side. Like doing up houses and they decorate and I do the deals or manage the construction stuff. In any relationship there has to be balance, if both are creative or both or business minded it's a case of too many cooks. 

What's interesting is that you thought not being career focused was a negative trait because of the sentiment around you. But in reality what you've said there is probably more healthy in general but also regarding relationships, than all of those successful women you mentioned, probably of you ask them they might tell you they've had a lot of relationship problems. But this is the problem, convincing women to be like men, most of the time it doesnt work 

[Raptorsin7]

@Zeroguy Thanks. Yeah I know I have to go grow up, i'm working on it.

Yeah I apply to that to life, i trust my own sense I assume i'm right and other people are wrong unless they are very persuasive

[Preety_India]

 I'm not against a man taking a lead either. But I need space within a relationship. Of course I would love to help him with his work, but at the same time I love to do my own creative stuff as well, not just for money but also for my personal creativity. 

I don't have a strong need for success. For me success is doing what fulfills the heart rather than the bank. 

I also don't strive for social recognition. For me it's more about personal freedom and what little I can do with my talents. 

I do not like the idea of a career driven woman. I find it very stage orange and that paradigm has always triggered me a bit. 

But I like the idea of two people giving space for each others talents and creativities. 

 

 

[Raptorsin7]

@Surfingthewave I know it's a long thread but do you have any thoughts?

[intotheblack]

@Raptorsin7 @Consept @modmyth

well the way I grew up was with a dad who controlled all the money and was emotionally detached and worked away at sea.. and my mam who had low self worth and wrapped me and my 2 sisters in cotton wool... she did have a nursing career but she gave that up to take care of us.  But she was doing it single handed.  My dad paid the bills but he didn’t help in any other way with raising us.  He felt that by paying the bills that was his job done, and his wife should do everything else. 

there was no encouragement to be successful. 

so I blame this for our lack of ambition and direction. 

My brother on the other hand, became very successful in his career, and he would always look down on me and my sisters because we didn’t know what we wanted to do.  

I do have a career, but it’s not the centre of my life. My ambitions were more to get away from home, travel and live in another country.  Which I did, so In that sense I was successful. 

but I remember other girls in my town were always working there way up the career ladder, which I never had a desire for.  They are actually all married off now and have kids.

My 2 sisters still live in my hometown, and they are still being judged by my brother and his wife for not having high flying careers by now...

my brother and his wife own restaurants, she is also success minded and does all of the admin side of it, whilst my brother is the chef.  They have 2 children. 
 

Edited April 24, 2021 by intotheblack

[Raptorsin7]

1 minute ago, modmyth said:

Probably they start no later than their late 20s for the most part, many people I know started in their mid-twenties or right after university. If that's what you're interested in, they're off the market pretty early.

Yeah I've been thinking about this. I'm 25 and I feel a sense of urgency to get my life together so I can find someone to fit my ideals

[Raptorsin7]

2 minutes ago, intotheblack said:

well the way I grew up was with a dad who controlled all the money and was emotionally detached and worked away at sea.. and my mam who had low self worth and wrapped me and my 2 sisters in cotton wool... she did have a nursing career but she gave that up to take care of us.  But she was doing it single handed.  My dad paid the bills but he didn’t help in any other way with raising us.  He felt that by paying the bills that was his job done, and his wife should do everything else. 

I grew up the same way. My mom's entire life revolves around me and my brother, and my dad is avoidant/emotionally immature and just buries himself in work. 

 

[Zeroguy]

15 minutes ago, modmyth said:

Also, all of the family-orientated people (I wouldn't include myself really) date seriously, pair off, and started families earlier than other people, including a lot my own relatives. Probably they start no later than their late 20s for the most part, many people I know started in their mid-twenties or right after university. If that's what you're interested in, they're off the market pretty early.

Yeah boy 24 years old. Well still have 2 or 3 years with her but show all signs you are capable and oh boyo 6 months and she would want to get married with me. My estimate. 

All predictable stuff not rocket science. 

Thanks @modmyth

Edited April 24, 2021 by Zeroguy

[Preety_India]

@intotheblack yeah I always come across men who have always berated me for not having a high flying career. 

So it's kinda antithetical when I see a man who talks about providing for a woman, something I'm not so used to hearing in my family. 

In fact in my family there is pressure on everyone to have a career, men or women 

 

[intotheblack]

4 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

@intotheblack yeah I always come across men who have always berated me for not having a high flying career. 

So it's kinda antithetical when I see a man who talks about providing for a woman, something I'm not so used to hearing in my family. 

In fact in my family there is pressure on everyone to have a career, men or women 

 

Yes.. it’s like that from what I see too. 
I find myself feeling like I SHOULD be striving for success. I don’t really want to try and *be* somebody. I want to progress with life purpose related things, but I don’t care about making loads of money.  Just enough that I can be comfortable. 

[Preety_India]

Just now, intotheblack said:

Yes.. it’s like that from what I see too. 
I find myself feeling like I SHOULD be striving for success. I don’t really want to try and *be* somebody. I want to progress with life purpose related things, but I don’t care about making loads of money.  Just enough that I can be comfortable. 

Me too. 

 

[intotheblack]

1 minute ago, Preety_India said:

Me too. 

 

So then I’m wondering is this just a normal feminine trait or is it wrong to be like this.  Is it just because of upbringing? I always worked because I knew I have to make money, and I wasn’t supported by parents, so basically if I wanted to do anything I needed to make my own money.  I also don’t want to be dependent on anyone after seeing my parents marriage. 

[Zeroguy]

What did I said. Slowly fades away. 

Only my grandma had to carry over. What a woman. All respect. Successful lady. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Zeroguy

[Preety_India]

Damn this thread is too long. 

I need to take a break from this thread. 

 

Bye. 

 

[Raptorsin7]

1 minute ago, Zeroguy said:

Only my grandma had to carry over. What a women. All respect. Successful lady. 

Yeah as I've grown up I have a new respect for my grandma. She's a bit cold and crazy, but she's the strongest person in my family

[Raptorsin7]

2 minutes ago, modmyth said:

I guess it depends how much you want to date someone from here. It gets a lot harder to date someone significantly younger than you past a certain point; I'd guess probably in your thirties. A person who dates that much older here is usually going out of their way to for the most part and it tends to be seen as a bit weird, as in, that's possibly going to create some serious friction for someone in their social circles.

You could always date someone from elsewhere where the culture is different in that way.

Yeah I'd prefer to meet someone from here but I'm pretty open.

I think I'm limited in many ways to woman in the west. I find very few Indian woman very attractive, and unless you're in a modern, multiculutural society Indian people are viewed very negatively in many parts of the world.

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, intotheblack said:

So then I’m wondering is this just a normal feminine trait or is it wrong to be like this.  Is it just because of upbringing? I always worked because I knew I have to make money, and I wasn’t supported by parents, so basically if I wanted to do anything I needed to make my own money.  I also don’t want to be dependent on anyone after seeing my parents marriage. 

I think it's normal feminine to not be very career driven or too hyper about wanting things in life. Hunting gathering was largely the work of men in old days, whereas women did nursing and caring. I think the curse of feminism is that we have to be more like men to fulfill social ideals. 

The funny part is that I have had women badger me and give me a hard time for being feminine and not being driven enough. 

I always felt like I was lazy and if I didn't do what I was told then somehow I wasn't contributing to the whole women empower thing. 

It feels like a struggle. 

On one hand, men might berate you if you are career driven and consider you too masculine on the other hand women will berate you for not being career driven enough, and call you a weak or lazy woman. I've been called a weak woman whenever I bring up this point with women 

It's hard because you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

Regardless, I believe that you should do what suits you best, what suits your heart, neither what men tell you neither what feminists tell you. 

Because in both cases you're pandering to someone else than you.