Does Success Hurt Woman's Dating Chances

[Preety_India]

4 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Speaking for myself I don't value a woman's income/success at all and I don't think i'm atpyical for men my age

That's a horrible attitude to have. You're basically basing her entire value only on looks. Something that women are fed up with and are constantly trying to fight through their endeavors. 

Women are sick of this attitude where she is just a piece of meat and nothing more and even her accomplishments mean nothing 

I would not even want to be born a woman in such a world no matter how sexy or beautiful God decides to make me. 

I want to be valued for who I am and for my accomplishments. They are very dear to me. I remember getting a prize in school and doing well at my first job. I will always remember those moments. 

For me to go out on a date with a man and begin to talk excitedly about my accomplishments and for him to say that they don't matter to him would be awfully depressing to me. I would break down and cry and return home. 

And even if he said that I'm beautiful and he likes me, I would be further crushed because I would feel very objectified and degraded in value as though I'm nothing but only eye candy.. 

Ahh. It gives me a headache. 

How can someone in 21st century even think like this. 

Such immaturity and so depressing 

 

And don't come with the cliche this is reality, this is brutal truth blah blah blah. 

 

[Preety_India]

I'm already crying just reading this entire thread. 

And I truly hope most men don't think like you. It's too depressing. 

 

[Raptorsin7]

@Preety_India I'm sorry that this thread hurt you. 

If it makes you feel better I'm 25 I live with my parents and I basically have the life style of a 15 year old, except I work 4 days a week at a dead end job. I'm not exactly a catch Haha

[Preety_India]

@Raptorsin7 if you think that you are not a good catch, that's your low self esteem which you obviously need to fix. 

But to say that you don't value someone's  achievements, that's really very disappointing. 

Imagine you're a husband and you had a major accomplishment and you come home to your wife and you share the news and she says that she doesn't really care or value any of that and goes back to her work. That would be so depressing to the husband. 

 

You need to question your entire perspective on women. 

[Raptorsin7]

@Preety_India I know I have issues and yes I will work on myself.

I should rephrase. It's not that I don't value a womans accomplishments in the way you're saying. 

if my partner achieved something they valued I would be happy for them, and I'd be happy that they were happy.

But when it comes to choosing a partner I don't care about success/Income come the same way I care about looks/femininity/character etc

Edited April 21, 2021 by Raptorsin7

[Raptorsin7]

@Preety_India Haha okay I'll try thanks for the tips 

[Forestluv]

Being successful in many areas can limit the pool of potential dating partners. If someone is a competitive marathon runner, that would intimidate a lot of people. A lot of people would feel insecure that they aren't in great physical shape and exercising everyday. Similarly, if someone is a highly intelligent professor a lot of people would feel uncomfortable or someone successful that makes a lot of money. 

Personally, I wouldn't care if a woman was successful and had high income. It's about her orientation. If she was a successful artist that was chill and eccentric I would love it. Yet I would be totally turned off if she was a "professional" that was all proper, concerned about her image and wanted me to dress up in suits and go to fancy executive banquets. I'm not into that at all. 

[Raptorsin7]

19 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

 

Personally, I wouldn't care if a woman was successful and had high income. It's about her orientation. If she was a successful artist that was chill and eccentric I would love it. Yet I would be totally turned off if she was a "professional" that was all proper, concerned about her image and wanted me to dress up in suits and go to fancy executive banquets. I'm not into that at all. 

I feel the same way.

Have you noticed this trend with your female colleagues? I'd imagine a professor/academic would be at the forefront of this phenomena

[Zeroguy]

Uncoditional. Vibe is that puts me off. or I take it as Challenge. 

Example Teal Swan. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Zeroguy

[Consept]

Here's the thing that women have trouble accepting 'men don't care about your financial or career success', it's not a factor in us pursuing you. Everytime this subject is broached men are always gaslighted into thinking that's wrong, men and women are attracted to different things, it's very simple. 

What's happened is women are doing much better than guys academic wise and are outperforming them and achieving more, which is great, but the downside is the pool of men these women will accept as a partner is shrinking. Men may feel some intimidation but there's whole scores of men that wouldn't even be given a second thought. This is not mens fault. For men the more we earn and improve we become more attractive to women but it's not the same and women think it will be hence the dissapointment. Women generally are in their prime in terms of attractiveness in the 20s (according to majority of men) and men from about 35 to 50 when they're more of the finished article and have created a good foundation. It just works like this, I don't know why people get pissed about it 

[Raptorsin7]

@Zeroguy What do you mean 

[Zeroguy]

2 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Zeroguy What do you mean 

For me it doesn't matter if she is successful or not. Poor or rich. I am looking for and value other things. 

[Preety_India]

Insecurity about not being able to match up to someone's credentials or achievements is one thing (we all suffer self doubt often but it's not really harmful to the other person)

Yet insecurity about feeling threatened by someone's success such that you see it as a threat to your ego where it fuels jealousy, envy and hate towards the other person is a dangerous form of insecurity that hinders another person's success and devalues their achievements. Such people resort to sabotaging another person's success. 

For example, when I was getting my Master's degree and my uncle told my mother - don't let her pursue further education, if she gets a PhD then she will find it tough to get a husband. 

I still think about that. It always hurts knowing this culture where men have an endemic jealousy and insecurity towards a woman's success.. 

I remember how in my mother's time, they used to deliberately not educate women in our culture because according to the general male mentality in the culture, there was no point in educating girls because their only job was to get ready to marry a man and learn kitchen stuff and serve him well in the marriage as a good wife and bear him children or else she won't have any identity or value as a woman and she had no value outside of men and marriage. She had nothing to aspire to and this was all she was made for.. 

Today the government ensures that women get education and men still whine about it saying that successful women won't get husbands. 

It's the same archaic patriarchal trope that keeps running and deeply hurts women. 

But women in my culture  have decided to consciously break that barrier and not be a slave to the patriarchy anymore.  

Women get better education and score better academically than men in my culture.  

There was also this thinking that athletic women won't get husbands in Indian culture.  Somehow everything that an Indian woman was or  could be,   only depended on if she could get a husband. She was considered a failure otherwise.  

Now women like Sania Mirza broke those social barriers by being successful in sports and also got married.  

These are evil taboos that keep women behind and do not let them achieve their potential.. 

I don't care if I get a husband or not.  This is an empowered statement.  because I'm tired and fed up with this whole patriarchal nonsense where my life, value, existence and identity is decided by men??

No that's not happening. My life belongs to me. Enough of men controlling the narrative.  My existence belongs to me and not to a patriarchal society that decides my worth and identity.  No. 

A society that doesn't value my accomplishments does not have  any room in my life. Sorry my life is more precious than some fucked up patriarchal mindset that doesn't allow me to realize my full potential and doesn't respect my humanity. 

This thread was deeply emotional for me because I was reminded of all the struggles women in my country went through to fight against that barrier set by men. 

India has a deep dark secret and that secret is female infanticide where females fetuses are aborted(although the government is trying to control it, it still happens ) because the male child is more valuable than the female child, so millions of baby girls used to get killed after birth because they were considered a waste of space and resources.  

Women used to be constantly reminded that they had no other role but to be a servant to a man in marriage, this mentality gave birth to many social evils against women in my culture where it was a routine tradition that a widow would be sacrificed by being burned alive on her husband's funeral pyre to show how much of a devoted wife she can be... 

This is the mentality that Indian women had to fight against generations after generations because millions of Indian women have paid a heavy price with their deaths because of an evil patriarchal mindset targeting women ruthlessly in the most sociopathic ways imaginable.  

Today Indian women have come so far in destroying evil social taboos against Indian women so it is very upsetting to find another post trying to devalue those struggles by stressing how women should be relative to how men want them to be. 

It looks light hearted and chill in the beginning and nothing harmful. 

But when you extrapolate this same mentality to the extreme you get a country and culture like India where women were routinely subjected to heinous crimes and atrocities  as a part of tradition and social practice.  

Now that we have come so far as Indian women in finally liberating from these heinous evils, we still  have many miles to go because there are still parts in India where girls are denied education because the fathers in that community think that girls don't deserve anything else outside of being shipped to a husband as a slave. 

A lot of Indian women of my age don't even think of marriage and are rather happy not being married because they see marriage as a dangerous trap considering all the past horror stories of Indian women of my mother's and grandmother's time who would be subjected to ruthless atrocities in a marriage by the husband and in laws, bride burning etc. 

My own mother was forced to either get married or commit suicide, something she never wanted for her own daughter. So she let me date whoever I wanted.  

All of the generations of women before me in my family were forced to be married, some of them married when they were only 8 years old.. Yes child marriages was a regular practice in India and my grandmother was married when she was only 8.  And groomed from that age to be a good wife. 

And this is not too long ago because my mother was born in late 1960s.  So you can imagine that. And my mother was forced to get married in the 90s. 

So this is not long ago. 

I'm the first generation in my family to get the chance to decide my love life on my own. And I'm not going to be another statistic in the long list of Indian women who were murdered to keep the patriarchy alive. 

I live my life on my own terms even though I have my struggles. 

This thread was started by an Indian guy and against the backdrop of a massively misogynistic patriarchal Indian culture, it really cuts deep. 

Felt like the same echoes from my ancestral past were being ricocheted. 

Here is how the first female teacher of India, and the mother of Indian feminism was regularly harassed and abused by men on the streets while trying to open the first girls school in India. 

Yea this thread triggered a lot of thoughts. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Have you noticed this trend with your female colleagues? I'd imagine a professor/academic would be at the forefront of this phenomena

Yes, some are intellectually pompous and it's a major turn-off for me. Yet usually, academics are thoughtful and appreciate being with another academic that is chill.

I went on a date with a pompous academic that kept asking during casual conversation "As an expert in your field, what do you think about xyz?'. She kept adding in credentials and expectations that I was super knowledgeable and an authority in the area. She was creating a high standard for my response and oneupmanship. And then she would say "As an expert in your field, I'm sure you are very familiar with Dr. ABC's work on XYZ. What is your expert impression?". Sometimes I said "I never heard of the guy". And she would look disappointed and say "Oh, I would think that an expert like yourself would be more knowledgeable than that". It was sooo annoying. 

[Arcangelo]

Yes 100% It's called Hypergamy.

The more educated the woman the less men she's got to choose from.

I told my step sister:

-You want a husband and a family?

-Yes

-Then don't go to college, stay like you are.

 

Check it out (minute 4:06)

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Arcangelo
minute 4:06

[Emerald]

13 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I've been listening to a youtuber named Kevin James recently and he brought up something about modern dating that i thought was interesting, and i'm about people's thoughts on the phenomena.

According to him, woman are becoming more and more successful these days (income, education, etc) and as a result you have a group of woman who are very successful and so they refuse to date men who they consider below them. But because men don't judge woman according to their income/education etc, something I agree with, you have a situation where these woman aren't attractive in the eyes of men they find attractive, but they won't consider dating someone who is not as successful as them. 

I thought this was interesting predicament and it could generate an interesting discussion.

I can only speak to my own experiences. 

But I don't really care about finding a guy who out-earns me or has a higher status. As long as he's on the same wavelength in terms of having big goals and a strong work ethic. I make a little under 6 figures a year now, so if a guy was making a $10k to $30k less than me per year, it wouldn't be a big deal. 

The only dealbreaker is if he's not on the same wavelength with regard to work. But as long as we're doing well financially and he's contributing in equal measure effort-wise, there's no issue there.

I tend to think that women who would suss out a guy for this reason and make it a dealbreaker is because she's probably deeply entrenched in materialism and status-seeking. So, in Spiral Dynamics terms, basically deeply entrenched in Stage Orange. 

But I've also found that many men are attracted to me specifically because of the personality traits that I possess in relation to what I do for a living and many men admire me for my capacity to make things happen for myself.

So, I've not really run into this issue, nor is it a concern of mine should I ever find myself single again. 

[Raptorsin7]

29 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But I don't really care about finding a guy who out-earns me or has a higher status. As long as he's on the same wavelength in terms of having big goals and a strong work ethic. I make a little under 6 figures a year now, so if a guy was making a $10k to $30k less than me per year, it wouldn't be a big deal. 

 

Where do you believe the attraction towards work ethic and ambition comes from? 

Also imo I think strong work ethic and ambition are of akin with status and high income. The kind of people who will be high income etc are the one's who have a strong work ethic and big goals, and vice versa.

31 minutes ago, Emerald said:

The only dealbreaker is if he's not on the same wavelength with regard to work

What does this mean?

32 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I tend to think that women who would suss out a guy for this reason and make it a dealbreaker is because she's probably deeply entrenched in materialism and status-seeking. So, in Spiral Dynamics terms, basically deeply entrenched in Stage Orange. 

I think many of these woman are after the traits you're what describing above but as a result of their higher success they also have higher standards for what they expect. Success and status are proxies for character traits like intelligence, ambition, work ethic etc

[Raptorsin7]

1 hour ago, Arcangelo said:

I told my step sister:

-You want a husband and a family?.-Yes 

-Then don't go to college, stay like you are.

I don't agree taking it this far. I think the issue occurs when woman want to be career driven and self sufficient, but also highly value a relationship and the potential for having children.

A woman in her 20's can spend 10 years climbing the corporate ladder and becoming a successful self sufficient person, but when it comes to finding a relationship it won't enhance her value in the ways many woman believe it will.

Personally I would find it attractive if my partner went to a good school and studying something interesting 

[Preety_India]

14 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Personally I would find it attractive if my partner went to a good school and studying something interesting 

Why do you think that a woman should tailor her needs and goals around what you find interesting and attractive?

Why can't she do what she wants and seek her purpose, because seeking a purpose is a higher goal than anything else in life, and I don't mean career here, I mean a life purpose, it's the highest aspiration a person has, and why should that be discarded in lieu of romantic attraction, and what exactly are the benefits of attracting a man, meanwhile keeping the self deprived of higher aspirations, how exactly is this a better trade off vis-à-vis doing what fulfills her passion internally and spiritually and finding a partner who shares her endeavors and takes her to a higher trajectory of growth, because not only is she strong and independent this way, a strong mother who can use her measure of success, no matter how small and use it to guide her children and thus raise a better generation for tomorrow and finding love and passion in collective endeavors with her partner?

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Preety_India

[Emerald]

39 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Where do you believe the attraction towards work ethic and ambition comes from? 

Also imo I think strong work ethic and ambition are of akin with status and high income. The kind of people who will be high income etc are the one's who have a strong work ethic and big goals, and vice versa.

What does this mean?

I think many of these woman are after the traits you're what describing above but as a result of their higher success they also have higher standards for what they expect. Success and status are proxies for character traits like intelligence, ambition, work ethic etc

Strong work ethic and ambition are attractive for two reasons. Number one, they are virtues and I admire people who possess virtues. Number two, work ethic and ambition are a masculine quality (regardless of whether a man or woman is possessing this quality), so a man who lacks these things is just not so attractive to me. It puts me off if it isn't there. 

Also, I don't see success as a proxy for intelligence, ambition, and work ethic. There are plenty of successful people who are none of those things.

I've always been intelligent, ambitious, and had high work ethic but chose to work as a teacher until I went down the entrepreneurial path I'm on now. And teachers aren't very successful financially. You can find plenty of people in fairly low-paying, non-glamorous jobs that embody really positive qualities. 

Often times, success and high income can come as a result of being born into a family with lots of money and connections. Whereas, you might have a very intelligent, ambitious, and hard-working person who was born into a lower station in life and chose an important but low-paying career. 

For example, I admire a lot of people who work blue-collar jobs. My father is a mechanic and was always very hard-working. And so, I wouldn't have any issue with being with a guy in one of those professions as long as he shared my values and interests. 

And what I meant by "being on the same wavelength" relative to work, means that he does his very best at what he does. He doesn't cut corners. And that it's important to him to feel a sense of contribution.