Does Success Hurt Woman's Dating Chances

[mandyjw]

5 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Speaking for myself I don't value a woman's income/success at all and I don't think i'm atpyical for men my age

That's fine.  But if you think that her income and success works AGAINST her, I think that's coming straight from an insecurity that would feel a lot better to examine and drop rather than perpetuate. 

[Raptorsin7]

1 minute ago, mandyjw said:

That's fine.  But if you think that her income and success works AGAINST her, I think that's coming straight from an insecurity that would feel a lot better to examine and drop rather than perpetuate. 

I wouldn't hold it against a woman if she were successful, but I would be hesitant if they insisted on their career taking precedent over family, my career etc. 

I just don't think men and woman value success equally when it comes to valuing a partner. Some woman believe that incredible success is incredibly valuable, it may be to valuable to them, but not necessarily to men

[mandyjw]

5 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I would want a competent woman if I have a role for her in my endeavors. 

I would want a competent man if I have a role for him in my endeavors.

Otherwise, I just want some numb idiot with a nice face and a huge dick. 

[Parththakkar12]

13 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

I would want a competent man if I have a role for him in my endeavors.

Otherwise, I just want some numb idiot with a nice face and a huge dick. 

You may be laughing about this, as if to 'insult back' or something, but the reality is that this is a very functional and sound dating-strategy! This is what a guy would actually want from a woman, quite frankly. For her to see him as competent and involve him in her endeavors. I daresay this is what most guys actually want.

The same would go for a competent woman. The whole problem with the patriarchy is that women who have real competence haven't been valued by the system, unfairly so. This can be fixed by giving them a role in which they are actually valued!

Edited April 21, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[Raptorsin7]

6 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

You may be laughing about this, as if to 'insult back' or something, but the reality is that this is a very functional and sound dating-strategy! This is what a guy would actually want from a woman, quite frankly. For her to see him as competent and involve him in her endeavors. I daresay this is what most guys actually want.

Amen

[mandyjw]

Just now, Parththakkar12 said:

You may be laughing about this, as if to 'insult back' or something, but the reality is that this is a very functional and sound dating-strategy! This is what a guy would actually want from a woman, quite frankly. For her to see him as competent and involve him in her endeavors.

Sure, I've seen it happen successfully, a female artist I follow got a huge break and now employs her husband as a musician and what they create together is absolutely amazing. 

But the premise of this whole thread is that women's success is unattractive. 

[Raptorsin7]

2 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

But the premise of this whole thread is that women's success is unattractive. 

That's your own projection and misunderstanding. That's not the premise of the thread. It's about men and woman valuing success unequally and how it affects dating prospects

[Parththakkar12]

11 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Sure, I've seen it happen successfully, a female artist I follow got a huge break and now employs her husband as a musician and what they create together is absolutely amazing. 

But the premise of this whole thread is that women's success is unattractive. 

It doesn't even have to be a really tangible or committed role. It could be something as simple as 'I'm stuck here, can you manage the logistics of this situation for me please?'

[mandyjw]

@Raptorsin7 Ok, if you're honestly so concerned only about this group of incredibly successful women who have such high standards that they are just so so alone, like very rich lost little puppies, maybe we can all go rescue them. But I kinda got the idea that there was a whole nother discussion going on beyond just that. 

[Raptorsin7]

@mandyjw I never said anything about being concerned i just thought it was an interesting dynamic.

I'm not a saint I have tons of bias, prejudices etc. But you are projecting and presuming a lot

[SamC]

21 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Sure, I've seen it happen successfully, a female artist I follow got a huge break and now employs her husband as a musician and what they create together is absolutely amazing. 

But the premise of this whole thread is that women's success is unattractive. 

@mandyjw No,  the premise is that women potentially won´t be attracted to males who are less successful than them because women are more attracted to wealth, status, and success than men are which then leads to a situation where the options for women are running out. ( Because they can´t find a partner to which they are attracted)

it's not that men see it as unattractive, it's that it is not as attractive as success is for women when they are selecting a mate. Like, men don´t really care. honestly( Attraction wise).  Sure they might be repelled by it because they are scared and have low self-esteem, but I don´t think that is that big of a problem.  There are other variables.. at least for more conscious males - such as looks, personality, compatibility, consciousness, etc.  If a girl is super-wealthy, the guys won´t care that much (attraction-wise) but the woman will care more because she doesn´t want to date below, she wants to date above.

Also, wealth is only one part of the attraction equation for women. Attraction can arise, if a man embodying his masculinity, even though he is poor. A woman who is wealthy should in other words still have a good chance to find a high-quality partner even though she might have higher standards because a man can give a woman security in so much more ways than being successful...

But, as I said -  the premise is that it might be harder because finding high-quality partners is harder when you have higher standards. Not that a successful woman is unattractive to men.

Edited April 21, 2021 by SamC

[mandyjw]

Just now, Raptorsin7 said:

@mandyjw I never said anything about being concerned i just thought it was an interesting dynamic.

I'm not a saint I have tons of bias, prejudices etc. But you are projecting and presuming a lot

Well, isn't the main objective to see those biases and prejudices? If we use the forum as a mirror and we have honest, open conversations together about tough, triggering subjects we can smooth out all those biases, limiting beliefs and prejudices that get in the way of relationships or our own successful endeavors. But if the objective is to sort of shore up a belief of "how things are" no one is going to agree or get anywhere because there is no actual "how things are" just your perception of things. 

 

[Raptorsin7]

@SamC Great summary thanks.

@mandyjw My objective was just to point out this phenomena. Whatever insecurities I have related to this topic aren't a huge concern for me tbh. I don't find success a particularly attractive trait, vs looks, character, intelligence etc. I have no desire to change those beliefs

[Roy]

That's because we still live in a patriarchal society where a lot of men are intimidated by successful women.

We are in an adjustment period moving towards an equal society.

[Raptorsin7]

1 minute ago, Roy said:

That's because we still live in a patriarchal society where a lot of men are intimidated by successful women.

 

That's not the problem lol, everyone is making this mistake. 

It's about men not valuing woman's success when choosing a potential partner. An average looking woman with average character/grace who earns 300k a year will likely expect a man in that income/class bracket. But high value men don't value the woman's income the way she values his.

 

[Roy]

7 minutes ago, Roy said:

a lot of men are intimidated by successful women.

 

4 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

high value men don't value the woman's income the way she values his.

Women and men are both participating in the outcome. They'll both have to come to some realizations and change the culture around it.

[Raptorsin7]

@Roy I don't understand what you're saying. Are you equating those two statements?

I agree things need to change, but in the meantime the phenomena will exist who knows how long it will take to change

[mandyjw]

4 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

but in the meantime the phenomena will exist who knows how long it will take to change

Until you wish to perceive it differently. Outwardly, until enough women refuse to move to the back of the bus and enough police officers arresting them for their refusal to move to back of the bus realize that they feel like total horse's asses and refuse to act out orders based on an unfair, flawed assumption. 

[Roy]

They aren't an exact equation. I was just pointing out after you said "it's not the problem" that men are intimidated by successful women, you immediately afterwords said "men don't value women's income (to the degree women value men's)", which is clearly a consequence of men coping because they are intimidated.

It's really an inevitable phenomena. The income/resource gap in relationships is a power dynamic that men have had the upper hand in for millennia. Now there are a lot more opportunities for the opposite case to be happening, with more and more women becoming successful and not being financially dependent on men.

Right now we are in a lag phase where there is still little cultural acceptance of women being primary bread winners in relationships. The economic reality has outpaced the ability of the social dynamic to catch up. This means you'll still get women hanging onto traditional expectations that their male partners can't earn less than them.

It's definitely shifting and changing for the better though. Even just anecdotally I've met a lot of couples in my life where the woman makes a lot more, and there is no weirdness about it.

It's mostly just boomers and sexists who can't stand this traditional double standard being challenged.

The problem here is I feel you think it's just successful women choosing to be picky bitches which is hurting their dating chances, when you aren't considering the entire other half of the equation; All the men who don't want to seem weak or have their "masculinity" compromised by being with someone they aren't equal or "better" than.

Edited April 21, 2021 by Roy

[Raptorsin7]

7 minutes ago, Roy said:

They aren't an exact equation. I was just pointing out after you said "it's not the problem" that men are intimidated by successful women, you immediately afterwords said "men don't value women's income (to the degree women value men's)", which is clearly a consequence of men coping because they are intimidated.

 

That is not true. Men not valuing woman's success for a partner is not because they are intimated.

I have faith  in my own ability to be successful, a woman's bank account and status means nothing to me. It's a matter of what people value, not insecurity.

I'm also not saying that a woman who earns a lot more than her partner can't have an awesome relationship. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Raptorsin7