Deconstructing the illusory self

[WaveInTheOcean]

46 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

@WaveInTheOcean   it doesn't matter whether you believe you are God or not, it doesn't affect reality in any way.

What you believe determines -- to a large extent -- how you interpret reality. Mood and so on.

Btw: Which 'you' are you referring to, cos there is no one here=D 

46 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

If that body runs into a mama bear with a cub, it will kill or maul that body.

Yes, just like if I jump out from a tall building in GTA (video game) the character dies. Luckily, I who am playing the game, can't die. 

The body dies sure. But I am not my body. I'm not the separate self I tend to believe I am (to be able to function as a human) . Notice if I didn't ever buy into the belief that I'm a human person, then I would just be equal to a stone more or less. Nothing to do.

[traveler]

41 minutes ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

The body dies sure. But I am not my body. I'm not the separate self I tend to believe I am (to be able to function as a human) . Notice if I didn't ever buy into the belief that I'm a human person, then I would just be equal to a stone more or less. Nothing to do.

But what he is saying is that there is no separate self. The separate self is not the body, it is that which believes it is separate and knows what is happening. "No self" is not a detachment from a real separate self into a "God self" as you seemingly point to. The end of the separate self is this, it is already over, the illusion is that there is somewhere else to go, something else to get. Believing you're a separate self is not proof of a separate self, it doesn't actually matter, it has no value other than the value put upon it by that illusion.

Edited April 21, 2021 by traveler

[WaveInTheOcean]

44 minutes ago, traveler said:

But what he is saying is that there is no separate self. The separate self is not the body, it is that which believes it is separate and knows what is happening. "No self" is not a detachment from a real separate self into a "God self" as you seemingly point to. The end of the separate self is this, it is already over, the illusion is that there is somewhere else to go, something else to get. Believing you're a separate self is not proof of a separate self, it doesn't actually matter, it has no value other than the value put upon it by that illusion.

There is no human body either. That's all I'm saying.

It's imagination.

Yes, there is a body, if I imagine one.

Yes there is a separate self, if I imagine one. 

If I don't, there is not.

Infinite Imagination. Who's imaginaing it all? No one! Aka YOU! Haha. I like to call "it" God, but words don't makes any sense here, call it what you want. It doesn't exist, yet is existence itself. Hehe.

But yes, the physical human body (and the outside world in general) is on a lower level of imagination than the more conceptual separate self (ego), which is a more complex, higher level of imagination (animals don't have it as we humans do).

But it is ultimately ALL just imagination bro. A play. A game. Call it whavever you want, it's just pure Love. Nothing to be afraid of. My body could shoot itself in the head with a gun and nothing would ultimately happen, just as nothing ultimately happens when a character in a PC Game dies.

Edited April 21, 2021 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

The ego (separate self) is an illusion.

The actual Self is all there is.

Edited April 21, 2021 by WaveInTheOcean

[Breakingthewall]

@VeganAwake So you have freed yourself from your ego in a constant way? Can you silent your mind by without effortless, without thoughts appearing? Or are you one of those who say: no, I'm still the same, with ups and downs, I get angry sometimes, but I know that the ego is not real.

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[traveler]

2 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

There is no human body either. That's all I'm saying.

It's imagination.

There is an apparent human body, but that is just words shining light on a particular set of forms. You could say everything is imagination, but compared to what? Every word falls short when you put it into this context, because "everything" has no opposite, no outside, no distinguishable features.

2 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Yes, there is a body, if I imagine one.

Yes there is a separate self, if I imagine one. 

If I don't, there is not.

It's actually not like that. There is a body, then you come in and say "it is there because I imagined it." You would tend to think that the body being imagination is wild and mysterious, but there just being an apparent body without any context, knowing or description... now that is mysterious, but no one is mystified. 

You're identifying with a "higher" "I," an I that is beyond existence, an I that is the creator of all appearances. That "I" can not be localized, nor can it be described. It is totally mysterious, even the experience that you might have gotten some sort of answer only superficially fulfills the need to know. This is total anarchy. 

2 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

The ego (separate self) is an illusion.

The actual Self is all there is.

There is no actual Self, because in all there is there is no other. That is why we say "there is no self," because when you start talking about "God" or "The Self" you're in story land, in "something land." What is longed for is the end of looking/knowing. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by traveler

[VeganAwake]

14 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@VeganAwake So you have freed yourself from your ego in a constant way?

But there was never anyone bound. Yourself and the ego are not separate... it is the same illusion, meaning it isn't real. (Hence the term nobody becomes enlightened)

Can you silent your mind by without effortless, without thoughts appearing?

Thoughts still arise but they are no longer identified with as MY thoughts... just apparent thoughts arising in this particular conditioned body/mind organism for no apparent reason whatsoever. And when those thoughts are no longer constantly being entertained or identified with, they die down significantly.

Or are you one of those who say: no, I'm still the same, with ups and downs, I get angry sometimes, but I know that the ego is not real

I'm sure a body/mind could spend hundreds if not thousands of hours attempting to rid itself of so-called negative conditioned patterns.

But the belief that certain behaviors are more spiritual or better or worse than others is just another conditioned concept within the dream story of the individual.

 

[Breakingthewall]

32 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

But the belief that certain behaviors are more spiritual or better or worse than others is just another conditioned concept within the dream story of the individual.

I'm not saying what is better or worse, i see it from the practical side. I have repeatedly seen that once the ego collapses, there is freedom all, without time. the wonder of the void. but it is impossible for me not to fall back into ego madness after a short time, and then it is difficult to detach the madness of self-referring thoughts. It's not about be spiritual or not, it's about freedom, quality of life. Well , meditating more and more is the way, I think

Edited April 21, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[Forestluv]

As soon as we say "there is no self", there is a self. There cannot be "no self" without "self". 

We can say "There is no ________". Yet as soon as that blank is filled in, there is a thing. It doesn't matter what we place in the blank. It is a thing that is not another thing. 

Another perspective: imagine telling a Chinese person "There is no self". He is learning English and doesn't understand what you mean by "self". He might ask "Is this 'self' a tuna sandwich?", we would say "No, that's not it". . . . "Is this "self" a candle?". No that's not it. . . We would need to define "self" as some thing and then say that thing is not a thing. 

The realization of "no self" is a major realization. Yet I find it entertaining that "no-selfers" subconsciously carry a thing called "self" as they claim "there is no self".. . . Such a beautiful paradox. 

 

[traveler]

16 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I find it entertaining that "no-selfers" subconsciously carry a thing called "self" as they claim "there is no self". Such a beautiful paradox. 

This is what you damn "selfers"? get confused. No self is pointing to nothing. There is no self being no self, there is just no self. It's a joke. No self is a paradox for the self.?

[VeganAwake]

 

 

[Forestluv]

19 minutes ago, traveler said:

This is what you damn "selfers"? get confused. No self is pointing to nothing. There is no self being no self, there is just no self. It's a joke. No self is a paradox for the self.?

I understand that. That is not the point. 

The way you are using "no self" would be the same as "Nothing", "Everything", "Infinity", "Reality", "Now", "One" etc. Yet that is not how the phrase "no self" is used. It is used to tell people that believe in a thing called "self" that there not a thing "self". That is a major awakening. Yet there are other awakenings regarding "self" / "no self". Many minds get trapped into a "no self" domain for a looooong time. 

For example, we could rename this thread "There is no _______". Yet that is not the intention. The mind would say "No! I don't mean there is no ______. I mean there is no self!"

[VeganAwake]

@Forestluv  

14 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

That is a major awakening. Yet there are other awakenings regarding "self" / "no self". Many minds get trapped into a "no self" domain for a looooong time. 

Really like what? can you explain them?

[Forestluv]

9 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

@Forestluv  

Really like what? can you explain them?

I've been trying to in this thread 

If a mind is immersed with the view on one rooftop it won't realize views on other rooftops. And yes, there is an awakening that there is One Rooftop and there is an awakening there is No Rooftop (in addition to the multiple Rooftop awakening). 

Realizing "there is no self" is a major awakening few people realize. Yet immersion into this prevents the realization that "there is a self" as well. 

[VeganAwake]

4 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I've been trying to in this thread 

If a mind is immersed with the view on one rooftop it won't realize views on other rooftops (it won't even be aware there are other rooftops). And yes, there are awakenings that there is One Rooftop and that there is no Rooftop in addition to the multiple Rooftop awakening. 

Now that's "my" kind of language...? ❤

[traveler]

17 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

that is not how the phrase "no self" is used. It is used to tell people that believe in a thing called "self" that there not a thing "self".

Yes, just like "non-duality" is used to tell people that believe in "duality" that there is not "duality." 

19 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Yet there are other awakenings regarding "self" / "no self". Many minds get trapped into a "no self" domain for a looooong time. 

No self does not point some thing called a "self" present at times and absent at other times. In other words, "no self" is not something that can be realized, it is already the case. Just like non-duality isn't opposite to duality, it is merely "discarding" the claim of duality. 

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Now that's "my" kind of language...? ❤

Fun stuff. 

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, traveler said:

Yes, just like "non-duality" is used to tell people that believe in "duality" that there is not "duality." 

Exactly. There must be a duality thing for it not to be that thing.

It is true to say that there is nonduality and it is true to say there is duality. And it is true to say nonduality is both different and the same as duality. Yet the mind works in opposites, so it's difficult to get a handle on. 

11 minutes ago, traveler said:

No self does not point some thing called a "self" present at times and absent at other times. In other words, "no self" is not something that can be realized, it is already the case. Just like non-duality isn't opposite to duality, it is merely "discarding" the claim of duality. 

Of course, that is the "no self" realization. That's not what I'm referring to. In that context, "no self" is the same as "Now", "Everything", "One", "Nothing", "Reality", "ISness", "Truth". 

Yet that is not the subconscious intention. Someone saying "there is no self" will not say it is the same as saying "There is ISness". The person will say "No, I mean there is no self". 

[traveler]

1 minute ago, Forestluv said:

Exactly. There must be a duality thing for it not to be that thing.

Yea, I get it. But anything said will be dualistic and contradictory when we pretend that what we're talking about is a thing. 

5 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

It is true to say that there is nonduality and there is duality. And it is true to say nonduality is different than duality and that nonduality is the same as duality. 

See that is just bollocks, but it is all fun and we're doing our best, talking about nothing. 

7 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

The term "nonduality" is usually used dualistically.  

I agree. 

[Forestluv]

Just now, traveler said:

Yea, I get it. But anything said will be dualistic and contradictory when we pretend that what we're talking about is a thing. 

Yea. Unfortunately any word used is not another word. That is the wisdom of the saying "The deepest truth is silence".