Deconstructing the illusory self

[WaveInTheOcean]

30 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

@WaveInTheOcean Thank you and you are a good writer!? ❤ i like your writing

Thank you sir ??

[WaveInTheOcean]

18 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

 It's not about be spiritual or not, it's about freedom, quality of life. 

Exactly. All this (spiritual work) is ultimately completely and utterly beyond cute concepts and word games; it's about how you FEEL. ??❤️????☀️

[WaveInTheOcean]

17 hours ago, traveler said:

See that is just bollocks, but it is all fun and we're doing our best, talking about nothing. 

Yet that nothing is also something. Wakey wakey. 

In my selfish eyes:

When a guy/girl insist on one polarity of a pair of opposites being "the true one" -- e.g. insisting "but there is NO self!!" --  that girl/guy is stuck in dualistic/egoic patterns of thought. 

No self - self - no self - self .... an infinite dance. An eternal loop. Divine play; constantly oscillating between the two opposites.

The Self is Nothing!

The No-Self is The Self!

The Selfless Self 

The formless forms.

The gateless gate.

☯️☯️☯️

Yin---yang.

Light/darkness.

Life/death

On/off.

1/0.

☯️☯️☯️

We get born with no self. Then we get a self by virtue of encoded genetics/culture/upbringing/conditioning.

Then we can transcend and drop/let go of that self. No self again! Then we can get a new, more expanded self, we built a CONSCiOUS self. A self that is all embracing, all forgiving, all Loving. Seeing itself in everything. A self that knows deeply that hurting another is ?% equal to hurting oneself. Cos oneself IS the other!

A self that sees itself in everything, yet knows it is nothing.

Wisdom tells me I am nothing.

Love tells me I am everything.

And between the two my life flows. 

- Nisargadatta

Opposites imply each other! That's like the most basic of all lessons of non-duality, and if we cannot even agree on that, we are infinitely far away from each other.......

Reality is fundamentally Non-Dual. Yet, dualities APPEAR cos We imagine them into existence. Why do We do that? Leela. Love. Play. Excitement.

❤️❤️❤️❤️????

Edited April 22, 2021 by WaveInTheOcean

[VeganAwake]

3 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Who's looking?

It's unknowable and it's left at that when the illusion of the knower is seen through clearly.

Ego = identity, so it will always identify itself as SOMETHING whether that be God, Higher Self, Pure Consciousness, The Self or what have you.

It cannot fathom its own unreality because its biggest problem is death. It simply cannot grasp that it's already unreal.

Best wishes my friend... Fair Winds and following Seas ❤

 

[WaveInTheOcean]

27 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

It's unknowable and it's left at that when the illusion of the knower is seen through clearly.

Ego = identity, so it will always identify itself as SOMETHING whether that be God, Higher Self, Pure Consciousness, The Self or what have you.

It cannot fathom its own unreality because its biggest problem is death. It simply cannot grasp that it's already unreal.

Best wishes my friend... Fair Winds and following Seas ❤

 

Unknowable is a good answer.

Yeah, ego is all that energy inside of us that wants to make distinctions, comparisons and make us feel guilty or superior. It's indeed all that energy that latches onto something and identifies with it. 

"Ego = identity, so it will always identify itself as SOMETHING whether that be God, Higher Self, Pure Consciousness, The Self, No self, Nothingness or what have you."

Fixed it for ya.?❤️ Thank you my friend - you too??❤️

[WaveInTheOcean]

 This fellow is on point

[WaveInTheOcean]

22 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

So you have freed yourself from your ego in a constant way?

But there was never anyone bound. Yourself and the ego are not separate... it is the same illusion, meaning it isn't real. (Hence the term nobody becomes enlightened)

Can you silent your mind by without effortless, without thoughts appearing?

Thoughts still arise but they are no longer identified with as MY thoughts... just apparent thoughts arising in this particular conditioned body/mind organism for no apparent reason whatsoever. And when those thoughts are no longer constantly being entertained or identified with, they die down significantly.

Or are you one of those who say: no, I'm still the same, with ups and downs, I get angry sometimes, but I know that the ego is not real

I'm sure a body/mind could spend hundreds if not thousands of hours attempting to rid itself of so-called negative conditioned patterns.

But the belief that certain behaviors are more spiritual or better or worse than others is just another conditioned concept within the dream story of the individual.

The ego and your true self are not identical, no. 

Ego is all that which makes you suffer. It's the shadow of God. 

The ego's purpose is SURVIVAL. It's oriented negatively towards EVERYTHING. Why? Because it wants your body to survive. That is its number one goal.

So it tells "you" WHATEVER it -- through evolution -- has "learned" is good to tell you in different scenarios in order to survive.

This means it will tell you a lot of absolute bullshit. Cos we don't live out in the savanna anymore where we could get eaten by a lion every second.

Your true self is THAT (unknowable as you say) which EXPERIENCES *everything!* . It is the ESSENCE of Experience. That is you. The ego is a FILTER through which you look at existence/reality.

Let go of ego (transcend it) and what is left is pure being. Inner peace.

Saying that nobody became enlightened is the same as saying someone did. Opposites arise together. If nobody became enlightened, well, somebody did! LOL. And vice versa.

What matters is inner peace vs inner suffering. 

But on the path, sometimes, we have to go through hell to get to heaven.

Peace <3
 

 

 

 
 This guy is one wise motherfucker.

Edited April 22, 2021 by WaveInTheOcean

[Breakingthewall]

13 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

I am actually speaking from direct experience. I'm not just parroting a belief system I have bought into (although I see it could easily seem like that was the case from the outside, since, for instance, Leo also talks about Infinite Imagination)

But believe what you want. You should go validate for yourself. Don't believe what I say -- that would be a mistake -- but don't dismiss it either.

"There is an apparent human body but that is just words shining light on a particular set of forms"

Yes. But likewise, there is an apparent separate self, but that is just words shining light on a particular set of mental patterns.

You see?

I get what you mean. The separate self (ego) can't be seen or found anywhere -- while the physical body can -- so it's tempting to only dismiss the separate self as illusion/imagination and call the physical body -- a particular set of forms as you say -- a real thing.

It's true, the physical outside world with all its different forms is - in a sense - more real than thoughts and in particular the false identity/attachment of/to these thoughts (ego).

But ultimately, also the material 'real' forms can be seen to be: imagination. Your imagination. In other words, the outside world can be realized to actually be 'your doing', i.e. it's a reflection of YOU. Your imagination. A more low-level pattern/structure of thoughts, if you will.

The outside is seen to be the inside -- and the inside the outside.

It's so fucking beautiful.

Actually, if you go deep enough in your contemplation, you will see that --- just like the mental illusory separate self cannot be found anywhere, cos it does not exist --- any 'physical apparent separate object', eg. an ant, ultimately is ALSO an illusory construct and *actually* cannot be 'found' !

Take the ? walking around on the ground in the rainforest along millions of other ants in an ecosystem filled with plants, mushrooms, dirt, rain, animals, bacteria, viruses, trees etc. 

Can you describe the ant without taking into account its environment/surroundings? You could try but then what 'you get' wouldn't actually be the 'essence of the ant'. 

The essence of the ant cannot be isolated. It is just as much part of the rainforest as your right little finger is part of your body. And the Amazon rain forest is just as much part of Earth as your feet is part of your body. And the Earth is just as much part of the universe as your stomach is part of your body.

And YOU, your body, is just as much part of the whole universe, as a wave is part of an ocean. Or even more correct is to say that the ? IS the WHOLE ocean. That wave is something THE whole ocean 'is doing' -- just like 'the real you' is something the whole universe is doing! Forget free will vs. no-free-will, this is just ONE Eternal Infinite Unfolding/Happening. ? Non-duality - all distinctions & opposites collapse into ONE.

So, thus, yes, when I say 'everything' is imagination, yes, you are right, from a logical PoV this is an absolute meaningless statement. It's like saying everything is Love/God/Consciousness/Nothingness etc. Meaningless - from a rational PoV.

Yet, Absolute Truth cannot be comprehended by the logical mind. It simply cannot.

Absolutely speaking, everything is ONE. Everything is Consciousness/Love/God/Imagination/Nothingness. All opposites are seen to 'arise together' ... i.e.: they are 'of the same substance'.

If you, instead, isolate and zoom into the ant (reductionism) to 'see its true nature' you start seeing millions of cells, billions of complex biomolecules arranged in intelligent ways, quadrillions of neatly arranged protons, neutrons, electrons, quarks, ... hell, what do we got, strings? Ultimately just: pure energy/potential/nothingness!

And EVERY form (physical object) is built of THAT. It's ALL seen to be Whole & One. No parts! 

If you zoom out indefinitely, you get ♾️

If you zoom in indefinitely, you get ♾️

 

???

[traveler]

 

4 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Well, while it's true there *in actuality* never was a *separate* self, it's also true that every human being growing up grows a 'sense-of-self' around the age of 3-5. You agree?

Yes, it is true if we're speaking on the level of story (the world, others, life, time, etc.). 

4 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

So, this sense of being s separate self HAS to be dropped in order to realize what the meaningless words 'no self' points to, you see?

Yeees. But the dropping away of the separate self is that it never happened, so it doesn't actually drop away. When it isn't there no one knows it or realizes "no self." The loop of the self is that it wants to know what is left when it isn't there. 

4 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

In other words, "no self" is INDEED "something" that can be realized. It's the dropping of the sense-of-being-a-self-inside-a-head..

No it is INDEED not something. That is what we're stuck on and the one thing I can't get across. 

4 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

The question for you is who/what realizes it. My answer now would be the Dao that can't be spoken, or the Selfless Self, ska God. The veil is lifted.

That is an insight, an experience. It is a fleeting moment of clarity, that is totally not what I'm talking about. 

4 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Feels like there are a lot of enneagram type Fives on this forum (I'm one myself) and the trap of the Five is to replace direct exp with concepts. Seems like 90% of Fives on this forum has fallen into that trap and is struggling big time to get out (been there myself, not pleasent at all).

But that is not happening "here" for "me." What I'm pointing too is not complicated at all, it is not a thing or a concept. There is no one here sitting in a space of "no self" holding on to an experience of nothing. You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Haha, we will go on forever, but it's no problem, this is fun. 

4 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Yet that nothing is also something. Wakey wakey. 

Of course. It is nothingsomethingness and not nothingsomethingness.

As I said, we're doing our best to describe the indescribable. You don't seem to like the "non" words, maybe because they're not something (not fun for type Five not to have something to figure out).

4 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

When a guy/girl insist on one polarity of a pair of opposites being "the true one" -- e.g. insisting "but there is NO self!!" --  that girl/guy is stuck in dualistic/egoic patterns of thought. 

But who is doing that? I have said many times that nothing is everything, the point is that 'no thing' - 'not a thing' - 'not something' points to what it is not, it is not opposite to "something" because you need "something" to have an opposite. Get it!?  

As you would say: these words come from direct experience. But that is not a sufficient description imo, I would say that these words appear from nothing. They are an apparent happening without ownership; there is no one having a direct experience finding the right words to describe a state. 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by traveler

[VeganAwake]

Watch 6:15 - 8:10 

 

[Finax]

Only and ego will try to deconstruct the ego, which can work but not all the way, at a certain point, the snake eating its own tail has to completely disappear, seems impossible right?

[VeganAwake]

48 minutes ago, Finax said:

Only and ego will try to deconstruct the ego, which can work but not all the way, at a certain point, the snake eating its own tail has to completely disappear, seems impossible right?

Exactly,

Ego tries to rid itself of itself attempting to put itself in a better position....It's hopeless!!

This recognition being pointed to is void of position, hope, meaning, purpose and value.

Meaningless Position-less hopeless freedom for no one.

[WaveInTheOcean]

8 hours ago, traveler said:

Yes, it is true if we're speaking on the level of story (the world, others, life, time, etc.). 

I think my main point here is that everytime we speak or write... we are always telling a story, even when we are trying to convey/point to a 'non-story' ;-)

8 hours ago, traveler said:

Yeees. But the dropping away of the separate self is that it never happened, so it doesn't actually drop away.

So this is exactly my 2nd point: what actually matters is *experience*, FEELING, consciousness, perspective.

So while it's all fancy to go meta ((and IMO go highly conceptual, which is I why I guess you're also a Five!)) and say: "oh well, in truth there never was a separate self that could be dropped in the first place, so nothing actually happened to no one" ...

This is IME some kind of mild spiritual bypassing, cos that is -- at least to me -- not how it felt, these times I had profound ego-deaths. 

It very much felt like my sense of self dissolved into, well, Nothing/Everything :-) And it was profound.

We might just be different, and you guys may prefer to not talk about it much and to not make a big deal out of it. So your way of describing such an awakening experience may be to just say "the veil was lifted. There was and never were a self to begin with. Just Nothingness".

And I can vibe with that too, sure❤️

8 hours ago, traveler said:

No it is INDEED not something. That is what we're stuck on and the one thing I can't get across. 

But you see, my friend, to me, it doesn't matter if we call it "something" or "nothing". I can vibe with both opposites pointing to the ineffeable. 

The only reason I go so much 'anti-no self" here in this thread against you and Veganawake, is because I smell dogmsticism about whether 'nothing' or 'something' are equally true (they are! Just two different perspectives pointing to the SAME ineffeable Truth).

To me, both opposites point to the same ineffeable Truth. (Sorry to repeat myself lol).

If you insist on one end of the spectrum being more "right" than the other, you are -- in my humble eyes -- still stuck in dualistic thinking.

What I am interested in is the "best way" to communicate truth//point to truth, to a normal stage orange person. Even though I'm aware all souls need to hear something different. 

But I think the best way to speak to a stage orange guy, is to take their level of consciousness/their perspective/"the ground they are standing on" and then turn it on its head; show them the paradoxes that arises when you take their belief system/logic to the extreme!

I think, thus, it is by far best -- along the way at least -- to speak to him in a way that includes both the perspective of 'something' & of 'nothing' and not just parrot one of the "stories" ( ;-) ).

If you tell to a normal stage orange guy that is inquiring into spirituality: "there is no self, so there is nothing to drop, nothing to get to, nothing to achieve", I don't think it will help him much.

I'd prefer to say something (?) along the lines:

"What does this self you speak of consist of?" ... etc.:D

8 hours ago, traveler said:

That is an insight, an experience. It is a fleeting moment of clarity, that is totally not what I'm talking about. 

Experience is what is.

Trying to go beyond experience is an alluring trap that easily makes you stuck in concepts instead of The Now/Present Moment (feels much better to be 'stuck' in the latter, I tell you!).

8 hours ago, traveler said:

Of course. It is nothingsomethingness and not nothingsomethingness.

Seems like we are (sort of) on the same page after all ?

8 hours ago, traveler said:

As I said, we're doing our best to describe the indescribable. You don't seem to like the "non"

Oh, as I said, I do like them. I just like to play The Devil's Advocate, when I sniff something is out of line ? My sniffing may be wrong, though, hehe. But it's still fun.

8 hours ago, traveler said:

it is not opposite to "something"

Good! Now we can go a level deeper and say "yet, something IS opposite to nothing!" , although it simultaneously is not hehe. Non-duality is such a strange loop. If I say 'nothing is not opposite to something', I have simultaneously implied that it is! Haha. Okay I'm just lolling around now. Gotta stop ?

8 hours ago, traveler said:

As you would say: these words come from direct experience. But that is not a sufficient description imo, I would say that these words appear from nothing. They are an apparent happening without ownership; there is no one having a direct experience finding the right words to describe a state. 

 

In regards to the Enneagram model, if you're not a Five, whar core type are then? 9?

??❤️?

[WaveInTheOcean]

Osho speaks so much Truth here: 

Would be fitting to end this fun conversation with this. Although I'm always ready to continue the dance ?

[VeganAwake]

@WaveInTheOcean ❤

[James123]

14 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

The ego's purpose is SURVIVAL. It's oriented negatively towards EVERYTHING. Why? Because it wants your body to survive. That is its number one goal.

Identification with the “body” is an ego itself. There is nobody and no body. 

[traveler]

4 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Trying to go beyond experience is an alluring trap that easily makes you stuck in concepts instead of The Now/Present Moment (feels much better to be 'stuck' in the latter, I tell you!).

I think the "problem" is that our interpretations of words are different. I'm not talking about going beyond experience into a mystical fractal sort of "state." What is happening is not an experience, an experience is a happening in time, it has a start and an end. Example: "I was at Tivoli and I tried the "Golden Tower," that was a great experience." Experiences are stories but I'm not saying they didn't happen, they apparently did. I'm pointing to that in which apparent experiences happen, but that is not a "thing," hence "no thing" is a good pointer IMO. I think we're close to talking about the same non thing. 

4 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Oh, as I said, I do like them. I just like to play The Devil's Advocate, when I sniff something is out of line ? My sniffing may be wrong, though, hehe. But it's still fun.

Same, haha. 

4 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Good! Now we can go a level deeper and say "yet, something IS opposite to nothing!" , although it simultaneously is not hehe. Non-duality is such a strange loop. If I say 'nothing is not opposite to something', I have simultaneously implied that it is! Haha. Okay I'm just lolling around now. Gotta stop ?

Alright, I'd say what I said is a "level" deeper, that comes down to my point about "nothing," which is everything by nature. Something is specific, everything is not. I will agree that nothing and everything are opposite in conceptual thinking but actually absolutely identical "in reality." 

4 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

In regards to the Enneagram model, if you're not a Five, whar core type are then? 9?

I don't know actually, I've never looked into that. From reading on the internet I would say that I can see both Type 5 and Type 9 in "myself." 

[WaveInTheOcean]

On 23.4.2021 at 2:13 PM, James123 said:

Identification with the “body” is an ego itself. There is nobody and no body. 

Exactly. We agree, bro.

The body  -- and everything, including the sense of being a self inside a skull/ego -- is ultimately seen to be:

imagination = formless Nothingness = Love.

[James123]

7 minutes ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Exactly. We agree, bro.

The body  -- and everything, including the sense of being a self inside a skull/ego -- is ultimately seen to be:

imagination = formless Nothingness = Love.

Whatever makes you happy brother. ?

[Breakingthewall]

Yes, the reality is that there is nothing, our whole existence is a kind of false perception of individuality, if you go deeper you see that there is no individual. as vegan awake says nothing matters .... but .... why are we here doing this job? for the love of the truth? It may be in part, but the reality is that we are in this to escape the trap. Those who are somewhat intelligent have realized that the rat race that has death as its prize is not a very good business, and they have wanted to see if there is any escape from that practical joke ... and the good thing is that there! So nothing matters, from a global perspective, but I do care to continue in the rat race like a fool, although in the end there is no such thing as "me", or the race, or anything. veganawake and james 123 think they have reached the bottom, to the root of the mystery, and that the solution is that there is nothing, and never was. I have also seen that, but then I have also seen that there is something. here I am writing. which is not real? somehow it is. nothing is playing with itself a strange game, to hide to be found. I see what it is not, like vegan and james, but what it is is missing. part of the equation escapes you. It is true that if you remove layers at the end there is nothing left, that certainty that you have never existed, but obviously you can go deeper still

Edited April 24, 2021 by Breakingthewall