"Never push for sex. Let her pursue." - Daniel Schmachtenberger

[WaveInTheOcean]

12 minutes ago, universe said:

I agree with many of his points, very obvious stuff (safe sex, trust etc.).

They main point about reducing suffering is abit short-sighted. 

If you truly care about reducing suffering you have to go deep into Self-Love, Acceptance and Truth.

Self-Love: Learn to love yourself no matter the sex you have or don't have. Love yourself for having sex with strangers or for failing at sex despite the fact that society wants to shame you for it. Love everyone who desires to make you feel ashamed.

Acceptance: Accept that you sometimes make bad decisions. Fully feel all your emotions and don't resist them, shame, lust, turn on, desire, feeling good, feeling bad. Accept how personal they feel. Accept yourself for who you are with all your flaws and strengths.

Truth: There are no bad decisions. Everything is 100% perfect the way it is. You are the person that likes to have sex and you are the person who doesn't like to have sex. You are your partner. You are everything. There is no seperation and you are not fragmented, neither in your psyche nor in your physical form. You are whole. You are Love.

 

This is something people have to do on their own.

Triggers are not to be avoided but to be transcendet and grown out of. Going around treating everyone with velvet gloves or like children will hurt them more than anything in the long run.

I trust strong and powerful woman to make their own decisions for them and not relying on me to do it. Doing this 3d chess game in my head where I manouver her experience as smooth as possile to avoid any ego backlash sounds exhausting.

56 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

1 hour ago, Chew211 said:

 

Great post!

(Yes this forum is bugged a bit on phones)

[WaveInTheOcean]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Obviously yes. Nothing I say goes against that.

The point is to make yourself so attractive that she is begging to have sex with you.

BUT, this does not mean you don't lead her proactively into it. Leading is still very important.

You're not going to logically persuade a girl to have sex with you anyways.

But sometimes she can be hesitant. You gotta make her comfortable.

Lead, lead, lead. Then if she says No, you of course back off.

Most weak guys give up way too soon. So for such guys it is good advice to burn every set to the ground. Make her tell you NO! Push it to see what you can get away with. This does not mean forcing yourself on her, but be persistent. This is not really necessary in normal dating situations, but if you are hitting the bars and clubs and doing cold approach and SNLs, then you gotta get good at dealing with all the BS obstacles and logistics. If you are doing casual dating from your social circle then such things are not necessary. But in a place like Vegas you gotta burn every set to the ground and push the envelope.

I think some (many) girls will find it very comforting and actually attractive / be turned on, if you while making out with her (and can tell she's a bit nervous, slightly hesitant) then suddenly stop and smile and say something like "woah I don't know if we should do this, I just got so lost in the moment, I'm sorry if I did anything wrong"... Chances are she will now like you even more for saying that, feel very safe and like you really care about her (safety is one of the most important things for the feminine, necessary for her to be able to get horny) and reply: "you didn't do anything wrong, come here".

[Leo Gura]

The bottom line is: if she isn't horny for you, you've done something wrong somewhere earlier in the process.

[Eternal Unity]

46 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The bottom line is: if she isn't horny for you, you've done something wrong somewhere earlier in the process.

?

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura Or she is just not attracted to you and/or compatible and nothing will change that. PUAs make it like it is your fault for every failure and that is not true. Some girls just will not sleep with you and there is nothing you can do about it. Some of course, not all. Talk to a lot and some will hook hard.

[WaveInTheOcean]

But yes, the "let girls pursue"-mindset probably fits men like Daniel (and his dad) who are far beyond stage orange in all aspects of self-development and are well-balanced and self-contained, and don't "need" to prove themselves by fucking a lot of women...They are already so at peace with themselves, exudes so much natural charisma and confidence, that girls naturally will come to them (to some degree).

[Nahm]

On 4/20/2021 at 3:29 AM, WaveInTheOcean said:

Thoughts about Schmachtenbergers tips?

It interesting how post marketing campaigns common sense comes back around as wisdom. 

[Emerald]

17 hours ago, Lyubov said:

What do you mean made the first move? Like, actually did you make the first move or did you just give him to go ahead to make the move on you?

The way it typically goes is that I'm already spending a lot of time with him. And I can tell that he's interested in me but concerned for going over boundaries. And then I'll either tell him how I feel about him or start being more affectionate with him so that he knows that I'm interested. So, I have typically been the initiator because I tend to be attracted to men who don't wear their sexuality on their sleeves. And I'm usually the one to escalate things further. 

[Heart of Space]

10 minutes ago, Emerald said:

The way it typically goes is that I'm already spending a lot of time with him. And I can tell that he's interested in me but concerned for going over boundaries. And then I'll either tell him how I feel about him or start being more affectionate with him so that he knows that I'm interested. So, I have typically been the initiator because I tend to be attracted to men who don't wear their sexuality on their sleeves. And I'm usually the one to escalate things further. 

It's awesome that you're open minded that way.  I will say that your situation is more common with a submissive male, which as a submissive male I that is amazing and beautiful.

That being said, as a submissive I don't want my man (or dom woman) meekly asking my permission for every subtle move.  That's not hot to me.  I feel I am an autonomous human and once trust is properly established I can revoke consent at any time.  It's my responsibility too.  But let's not neuter dominant sexual behavior because that's beautiful too.?

[Arcangelo]

"Never push for sex. Let her pursue."

Hehe!  Good luck with that.

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

It's awesome that you're open minded that way.  I will say that your situation is more common with a submissive male, which as a submissive male I that is amazing and beautiful.

That being said, as a submissive I don't want my man (or dom woman) meekly asking my permission for every subtle move.  That's not hot to me.  I feel I am an autonomous human and once trust is properly established I can revoke consent at any time.  It's my responsibility too.  But let's not neuter dominant sexual behavior because that's beautiful too.?

I wouldn't call the man submissive persay... more reserved. I'm definitely not very dominant with this. It's a more subtle dynamic, usually couched within a developing friendship. Not very dominant or submissive at that point.

What I'm actually attracted to is the sense of a man being reserved and mysterious and wanting to bring out what is otherwise hidden. And what's also attractive to me is that a man might be concerned with my feelings about his approach, showing a kind of responsibility and restraint... a strength of character.

I've had a tendency to be attracted to older men since I was 20. And there was always an understanding that any older man who actively approaches a much younger woman might not have consideration for her feelings or boundaries. And he might have a tendency towards immaturity and seeing her as a wish-fulfillment fantasy.

And this just wouldn't be attractive to me, because in my attractions toward older men I was attracted towards maturity and supportiveness and desiring a deeper dynamic.

And so, in a circumstance where I'm attracted to a man who's older than me, I would tend to only be attracted if he shows that he's concerned for my perspective and takes into account how his actions might emotionally impact me. And this means showing constraint with his sexuality.

So, this means that I would need to indicate to him clearly that I'm interested. If it's too easy for him to cross that threshold, it's a bit of red flag.

But this has also carried through with attractions to men my age too. 

[Lyubov]

On 4/21/2021 at 6:17 AM, Leo Gura said:

The bottom line is: if she isn't horny for you, you've done something wrong somewhere earlier in the process.

nah, disagree... sometimes a girl won't be into you. period. maybe you look like her psycho ex and there is just no getting past that with her given you're someone she just met or maybe she at a place emotionally where she will literally turn down anyone except maybe her dream man. not everything is always about what the man did/didn't do. this 100% responsibility jargon is something I remember hearing a lot in my early pick up days and at a certain point it became unhelpful/untrue once I had a broad understanding of this domain.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Lyubov

[StarStruck]

A wise man once said: men are like dogs, women are like cats.

Cats don't like to be chased while dogs do.

[Leo Gura]

On 4/21/2021 at 4:40 AM, Karmadhi said:

Or she is just not attracted to you and/or compatible and nothing will change that. PUAs make it like it is your fault for every failure and that is not true.

In this context, if sex is close to happening, she's already attracted to you. We are talking about a much further phase in the process.

Attraction >> Rapport >> Seduction.

This is the Seduction phase. If your seduction is failing, you fucked up at the Rapport phase. Once you're past the Attraction phase, she is guaranteed to sleep with you as long as you handle the Rapport and Seduction properly, and you squash all the logistical obstacles.

You gotta practice and master each phase. Attraction and Rapport are the hardest.

[Hardkill]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

In this context, if sex is close to happening, she's already attracted to you. We are talking about a much further phase in the process.

Attraction >> Rapport >> Seduction.

This is the Seduction phase. If your seduction is failing, you fucked up at the Rapport phase. Once you're past the Attraction phase, she is guaranteed to sleep with you as long as you handle the Rapport and Seduction properly, and you squash all the logistical obstacles.

You gotta practice and master each phase. Attraction and Rapport are the hardest.

What exactly do you consider to be an example of differences between attraction, rapport, and seduction?

Also, don't girls give last minute resistance sometimes because she was just not really in the right headspace either due to feeling too insecure or got too emotional?

Edited April 27, 2021 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

@Hardkill Study up on the Mystery Method. Some old school wisdom in there about the phases.

LMR is usually just lack of comfort/rapport.

[Danioover9000]

@WaveInTheOcean

On 4/20/2021 at 8:29 AM, WaveInTheOcean said:

https://civilizationemerging.com/a-message-for-men-who-want-to-avoid-women-regretting-having-been-sexual-with-them/ - Daniel Schmachtenberger

Just thought I'd post here as I feel like I this sub forum, and Leo sometimes, has too much "stage orange"-focus around dating and sex.

Thoughts about Schmachtenbergers tips? His main point is basically that you should never have sex with a woman unless you are 100% sure she is very willing and has "yes" on all levels of subtle communication, e.g. verbally, non-verbally. If you're the slightest in doubt or if she hesitates or if you had to persuade her... call it off, he says.

Basically: "Never push for sex. Let her pursue."

   They do apply to some men that are more developed in their psyche, and not as horny as younger men. Main issue issue with this advice is it can give a pass on when you do have to work harder on attracting and building rapport with women when the context is necessary for pursuing, because if this advice is true, surely I could get away with less work and effort right? Not quite true, unless you are socially grounded and have higher natural attraction, such a guy could pull off this advice. However, when your looks are closer to average, and you don't have above average social skills, and you don't quite have a positive psychology and attitude, all you have is the following to make it more likely you land a date, and maybe a fling: sex drive, ambition, faith in yourself in making this happen no matter what, visioning, dreaming big and taking massive action.

   To understand the potential abuse of this advice, let's change context and talk instead about life purpose. Using this advice means I'm telling you not to pursue, think too hard and focus too hard on your life purpose, and not to take that much action on it everyday, which is the opposite of finding out what you want from life, and making it, which does take lots of work. Sounds pretty strange advice, no, that I'm telling you to give up on the point of failure, when just going over that limit a little gives success? It's like abandoning a work project, like say a book, and a month away from publishing the novel, or the manga series, you quit because there's some doubt over the success of the project, and hope the opportunity just comes to you when instead you could've given an extra effort and gone forward with that decision.

   Until she gives a clear no, don't give up the chase.