Veganism And Ethics

[Emerald]

8 hours ago, Neill said:

WOW. I had no idea Leo would make such a delusional comment. Jesus christ. Do you honestly not see the self-justification monkey mind at work here? Man I almost don't want to watch any of his future videos. Take a step back and examine what you're actually telling yourself here. I can't get into this any more. I can't believe you're likening the single most destructive human act possible to "stepping on microbes on the grass". Why can't there be a single fucking decent human being on this shitty planet.

Unfortunately and fortunately, it's not a delusional comment. It's completely rooted in truth. The nature of the truth is that it can justify anything that exists, because that which exists is the truth. Not our beliefs about things or our preferences for how we'd like for things to go. So, you can use the truth to justify factory farming, murder, rape, pedophilia, sexism, racism, exploitations of all kinds, and much more. If you look deep enough into things, you'll see that everything is perfect: good, bad, and ugly. It's liberating and actually increases compassion to experience this recognition firsthand. That said, on the practical/subjective/theoretical level, using the truth logically to justify deeds that create suffering is an ego defense mechanism disguised in truth's clothing. Many a slave owner probably reasoned that what they were doing was a necessary evil or perhaps even good. Hitler probably felt totally justified doing all the things he did. No one feels like they're the bad guy. So, I would say that Leo's comment is an accurate representation of the truth on the logical level... but emotionally it skirts the issue. My view is that, if I'm disturbed by it, I probably shouldn't be contributing toward it. We should consult our emotions and not logical understandings to make the decisions about what we should and should not contribute to. If everyone did this, factory farming would suffer greatly as an industry. If people as a whole group really had the gumption to live in tandem with their feelings about what happens when they see it in a video and become truly aware of the suffering, the industry would be cut down to a 1/2 of its size. 

[Extreme Z7]

2 hours ago, Neill said:

Again with the completely unsubstantiated comments. If you have an issue with anything I've said then you can spit it out. Otherwise what are you doing.

What?

Edited November 1, 2016 by Extreme Z7

[Bob84]

9 hours ago, John Flores said:

 

@Bob84 I have an ego. It's just how I am right now. I am sorry if my opinions or ego insults you.

I know, everyone has. Its just how much attention you pay to it and in a sense seeing it for what it is. I am not insulted at all as i have stopped caring for those projections. Hope that makes sense 

[Neill]

11 hours ago, Extreme Z7 said:

What?

What?

[WaveInTheOcean]

When asked why he was a vegetarian, philosopher Alan Watts famously quipped, “because cows scream louder than carrots.”

All eating involves killing, but it pays to be mindful of it, and Watts knew it.

Edited November 1, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[Neill]

Exactly. It really is not difficult to just do what we can. I can't believe Leo himself is deluding himself with this egoic nonsense. Microbes in the grass... christ this is no different than the "logic" of your run-of-the-mill ignorant fool doing no more than looking to make life just that much easier for himself at the expense of our world.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Neill

[MaxBlank]

Guess what?! If you swim with the sharks, you are the shark- when they eat YOU!

Have a nice day.

[WaveInTheOcean]

10 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

Begs the question: What's the payoff.

The only thing you're mindful of when you eat and think about dead animals, is thoughts about dead animals. And not even enjoying the food. Now that poor animal really died for nothing, a petty waste of a costly gift. I don't see the upside, but whatever floats your boat.

There is naturally nothing wrong with eating meat in itself. If you stumble upon a death bird, hare, squirrel, deer in the woods, by all means, take it home and cook it if it seems fresh and you're hungry. 

If you go at a cold night look in a supermarket's container and find some beef that ran out today, and you still think it's fresh, sure take it home and eat some beef.

Also hunting in the woods alone in search of animals to eat, because you're, say living in the woods and desperately need food, sure go and kill an animal and eat something so you can survive.

But if you go down to the supermarket and buy pig, cow, chicken or whatever meat for dinner, then you're directly supporting the livestock industry and thus directly supporting the suffering/killing of more animals. Only because you like the taste. Because the more meat the supermarket sells translates, again, directly to the supermarket buying more meat from the slaughterhouses, which then translates to the slaughterhouses buying more cows w/e from the farms, which then translates to the farmer seeing opportunity to get an even larger farm of cow/pigs/chicken whatever, and thus more conscious beings born into slavery with their death already planned.

[BHL_20]

On 10/31/2016 at 6:20 PM, Neill said:

WOW. I had no idea Leo would make such a delusional comment. Jesus christ. Do you honestly not see the self-justification monkey mind at work here? Man I almost don't want to watch any of his future videos. Take a step back and examine what you're actually telling yourself here. I can't get into this any more. I can't believe you're likening the single most destructive human act possible to "stepping on microbes on the grass". Why can't there be a single fucking decent human being on this shitty planet.

 

On 10/31/2016 at 7:06 PM, Neill said:

So really is all you're able to do is make snide remarks instead of actual discussion points? This isn't about me, this is about the ethics of veganism. Ad-hominems are meaningless.

The fact that so many vegans get extremely emotional at any disagreement and call eating animals things like "the single most destructive human act possible" really turns me off from the movement. It seems very dogmatic and it's shocking when vegans go to extremes like saying meat-eaters should die. It's like religious people used to justify torture/killing of people for acts of heresy or blasphemy. It's scary how easy it is to justify killing another human being.

The other main issue I have is dietary concerns. Every nutritional expert I've come across seems to condemn eating carbohydrates. It is said that consumption of grains can lead to obesity and diabetes and it's widely recommended to completely cut them out. Of course, meat can also cause problems if not kept in moderation but it isn't seen to be that bad. Moreover there are animal products like fish and eggs that are considered quite beneficial. And if we cut out both carbohydrates and all animal products we don't exactly have much left. At that point nuts and oils are the only sources of calories left that I can think of.

Edited November 1, 2016 by BHL_20

[Neill]

2 hours ago, BHL_20 said:

The fact that so many vegans get extremely emotional at any disagreement and call eating animals things like "the single most destructive human act possible" really turns me off from the movement.

It is, all the statistics needed are very publicly available, you are choosing to ignore them.
 

2 hours ago, BHL_20 said:

It seems very dogmatic and it's shocking when vegans go to extremes like saying meat-eaters should die. It's like religious people used to justify torture/killing of people for acts of heresy or blasphemy. It's scary how easy it is to justify killing another human being.

Nobody has said anything close to the sort, and in fact you are the one exaggerating and categorizing this off here. I'm just going to repeat- if you have anything of substance to actually contribute to a discussion around why veganism shouldn't be an ethical imperative for the standard person in modern society, then what is scary here is how easy it is for you to justify the killing of other sentient beings. Leo wants to talk being all-inclusive of the microbes in the grass? Then what the fuck are you doing singling out humans for?! How can you not see the blatant, hugely egoic error in your logic?! It seems shocking how easy it is to justify killing another human being yet it's perfectly ok to justify the systemic genocide of other perfectly sentient beings while simultaneously being the single greatest contributor to global warming and ecological destruction of our planet? All for what, your fucking palette preference?! Really, nothing here makes any sense whatsoever and is "shocking" you right now? Stop lying to yourself.
 

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Moreover there are animal products like fish and eggs that are considered quite beneficial. And if we cut out both carbohydrates and all animal products we don't exactly have much left. At that point nuts and oils are the only sources of calories left that I can think of.

Tell that to our children who'll be living in a world of fishless oceans.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Neill

[WaveInTheOcean]

17 hours ago, NTOgen said:

This is the world I find myself in. I never asked for any of it.

Everything in your life was given to you as it is, including the world, and including life itself.

The opposite statement: 

'Everything I experience in both the internal and external world is a manifestation of what I am. It is what I am. I absolutely asked for all of it.

Nothing in life was given to me. I took it all'

Is just as true as yours. In fact from a Being/Truth/divine perspective it's more true, and your statement (that I'm not responsible for the live given to me) is pure egoic lies you tell yourself.

Yes, from an ego-perspective you were born into this world, and you had absolutely nothing to do with it! Here the ego sees itself either as a mechanical fluke (atheists) or as a prisoner on probation (religion, the big Father in heaven is watching you!).
Either perspective you take, you don't really feel you belong in this world.

If you instead can allow yourself to see beyond yourself, and see that your true nature is Divine/God/infinite consciousness/Nothingness -- or to put in other words: that your true deep-down-within 'Self' is the same process that gave birth to who you think you are (the ego) -- then you can actually start to feel that your own existence is absolutely fundamental. You begin to feel that you belong here.
 

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If one day supermarkets decide to find more "wholesome" sources of meat or whatever, or the food industry suddenly sees the light, then that's fine with me. Then that's what I'll buy.

You know what? There are thousands of vegan imitations of meat that has the same texture and tastes somewhat like meat. Just look for it. 
 

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If you want to be mindful of life and suffering, be mindful of your own.

Yeah, 100% agree, in fact that's all we can be mindful of. All we can be mindful of is what we individually experience. Which leads me to:

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And one day it will be taken from you again, just like it's taken from the animals you eat. You think there's something wrong with the world, but there's not. It's just the backdrop to your own journey, but you're just getting lost in the scenery. Find out what YOU are doing here, and fucking do it,

Again, there is nothing wrong with the death of one's illusionary self/ego/person/body/human/animal. It's so natural, yes. 
Also, there is nothing wrong with suffering either. Ultimately there's nothing wrong. Everything just is. Things can only be wrong from an ego-perspective. However, we must also realize that we do in fact live from an ego-perspective, and we have to cope with that. 

From an ego-perspective, suffering/pain will always be "not-wanted". No matter how enlightened you are, if I stick a knife into your chest, you will scream of pain. The screaming comes from ego/biological mechanisms, and it's disliked by the person. Since you, from your perspective don't want suffering for yourself - ask yourself - do you want to unnecessarily cause suffering upon other ego's than your own ego? If the answer is no, which I suppose it will be for most people with an atleast average type of awareness/consciousness, then that implies that you, your own ego, will naturally feel pain each time you see suffering in another being.

Yes, when you eat your beef from the supermarket, you don't directly see any pain, but if you're just minimally interested in truth, you must be aware that because you bought that beef, you are actually directly contributing to the misery of other beings. And why inflict that pain upon yourself? Why are you doing it? Because it tastes well ... ?

Be mindful of your own experience. Yes. If what you do externally doesn't align with how you feel internally, then that can only lead to some sort of pain, which will show in one way or another. If what you feel internally, is that you don't want to cause unnecessary suffering onto other ego's/conscious animals/humans, but you externally still buy the meat and eat it everyday -- and you deep within know, that you just supported an industry that causes pain to conscious animals -- then there is an obvious misalignment, and I can't see how that cannot lead to some sort of unhappiness.

It's all about being mindful and aware, ultimately. If you're totally blind to how the meat/livestock-industry functions, either because:
- you couldn't care less about where the food you eat comes from
- you have mental problems/are mentally retarded,

then fine, go eat your meat, it won't impact you in any conscious or unconscious way. Just look at young children. Give them meat, and they'll eat it. It tastes yummy. Show a young 3-5-year-old where the meat comes from, how the male-pigs gets castrated without pain-relief when they're born, how they're treated, how they have no space to live, how they're slaughtered, how they're suffering, how a female cow's calve is taken away from her within a few days etc. and I'm sure the kid will start to cry. It just comes from deep within us, that we dislike suffering.

If you're aware of all these things, then how can you keep supporting what's going on? How? Why are you inflicting this pain upon yourself?

But yeah, most people are brainwashed to infinity by the culture, society, capitalistic industries. The livestock industry does all it can to fabricate this image of happy animals living in peace on the farms. When you buy milk, surely there's a smiling cow on the bottle. And etc etc etc.

Ultimately, I don't care if you - or anyone for that matter - eat meat or don't. I'm just a dude who likes to discuss human behaviour/consciousness on an internet-forum.
I dislike many vegans' total attachment to their vegan-lifestyle, and how they furiously want to enforce it upon others.

I care about myself only, just like - ultimately - everyone else does, even if they pretend/think they do not.

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Find out what YOU are doing here, and fucking do it, 

Exactly :-) Find out.

Edited November 2, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

3 hours ago, NTOgen said:

Honestly, you worry too much. I thought I was a claptrap, but I think you just stole my prize.

What has all this finessing and finagling ever brought you, except the feeling that you ARE a prisoner on probation.

I won't even bother comment on this. Great reply here mate.

3 hours ago, NTOgen said:

@WaveInTheOcean Check this out:

 

Why do you send me this? He talks about killing isn't wrong, and that non-killing hasn't anything to do with 'spirituality'. Sure, I fully agree. 
His example about how we might kill rats if they raid our house and bite our children is pointless here. Of course I suppose most people, including me, would do anything to get rid of rats if they invaded your house. Including killing them. Nothing wrong with killing them at all.

1 hour ago, NTOgen said:

@WaveInTheOcean Here's the thing. All this "awareness" of how the world works and how short-sighted people are, and all of that... it's a phase. At least consider this possibility.

You've had phases before. You didn't jump from total ignorance to your current nuanced view all at once, you had to pass through the Neill-equivalent phase first. Am I right?

Phase? Observing genuinally how the society and such functions has nothing to do with phases lol. In fact I don't care much about how society functions, although I am pretty interested in studying it, as it fascinates me. It has nothing to do with phases.

And no, I haven't been at any Neill-phase or anything. In fact, I've never been a vegetarian/vegan. I'm just discussing the matter of consciously supporting the livestock industry vs unconsciously supporting it vs unconsciously not supporting it. Yes, it's all egoic matters and it doesn't matter ultimately. But from an egoic point, I argue that it matters, although I still continue to eat it, at least for now.

I'm not trying to win any argument here, really... I'm just discussing whether or not it matters to the ego if you eat meat consciously knowing you're indirectly contributing to the harm of conscious animals. Of course you can just live in unconscious bliss. That's what most people do.
 

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"But whether or not it's justified, it's still not who/what you really are."

Of course not, I have never claimed otherwise.

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The only choice you have now is to consider that ego can't be bargained with, and that the only way forward is to stop valuing its take on the dream, no matter how sophisticated, over waking up. It's mind doesn't need to change, but you do need to see that mind isn't you.

Sure, you can become enlightened while still eating meat. Never claimed otherwise.

The ego can bargain with itself. In fact it does that often, consciously or unconciously.

"and that the only way forward is to stop valuing its take on the dream"

This is just pure nonsense :-) What/who is it that has to stop valuing the ego's take on the dream? What is even valuing the dream in the first place? Ego, ego, ego. Of course ego can be bargained with. What the fuck are you actually talking about. What cannot be bargained with is Being/Truth/God - but the very thing that can be bargained with is naturally the ego for christ sake :-) In fact the ego bargains with itself almost all the time.

Just to clarify why your sentences here are complete nonsense:

"The only choice you have now is to consider that ego can't be bargained with,"

You're so obviously contradicting yourself here. You say that an ego (me) has to 'consider' that it can't bargain with itself. Well if it is able to consider stuff, then of course it can bargain with itself. C'mon :-)

Edited November 2, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

"Besides, I thought mindfulness was about eating without thinking, so which is it "

Sure it is. Forget about eating. I'm talking about buying.

You also think mindfulness is about buying stuff without thinking? :-) To me, it's rather the opposite. It's being asleep. Now, there's inherently nothing wrong with being asleep though.

Buying stuff always supports the seller/producer of that stuff - that's obvious. If the seller/producer does something that's very much against your values, and you still buy the produced -- while being aware of all this -- then... then what?

[Alex K]

@Neill Please don't listen to all these guys, including Leo. Their life purpose is to get enlightened currently, they don't want to think about anything else deeply, including because they feel your ego is so strong on this topic, they have a developed nose for that, so they just tell you to get enlightened by all their comments. Consider this: 20000 of them would become enlightened during the next 20 years, they loose money drive, success drive, self image drive etc. They start a natural new search for contributing/impacting the world. Just an example here, 10% would become spiritual teachers, 10% human right defenders, 30% would create beautiful tech and humanitarian products, ... and 10% would become activists to combat global warming, 1-2% of which would participate in an anti-meat programs. That is 400 enlightened people, that is a formidable force that would make a change in the world. Let everything here run it's course, if you can't contribute by any big action, teach your ideas to people around you less knowing than you, ignorant, dormant. Here you would not achieve anything of value with your approach imho.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Alex K

[Neill]

25 minutes ago, Alex K said:

@Neill Please don't listen to all these guys, including Leo. Their life purpose is to get enlightened currently, they don't want to think about anything else deeply, including because they feel your ego is so strong on this topic, they have a developed nose for that, so they just tell you to get enlightened by all their comments. Consider this: 20000 of them would become enlightened during the next 20 years, they loose money drive, success drive, self image drive etc. They start a natural new search for contributing/impacting the world. Just an example here, 10% would become spiritual teachers, 10% human right defenders, 30% would create beautiful tech and humanitarian products, ... and 10% would become activists to combat global warming, 1-2% of which would participate in an anti-meat programs. That is 400 enlightened people, that is a formidable force that would make a change in the world. Let everything here run it's course, if you can't contribute by any big action, teach your ideas to people around you less knowing than you, ignorant, dormant. Here you would not achieve anything of value with your approach imho.

lol "my ego". I think you mean "statistics and scientific fact". I'll continue to comment with my opinions and speak up for those who can't because very few people are doing so. I am not making excuses for myself based on vague nonsense about "what might happen in 20 years". I am concerned with actions taken in the present moment. Isn't that supposed to be all that exists? Or wait, is that only when it's convenient for our human egos?

[Alex K]

@Neill 

- It is not about excuses and it is not vague, it is a very logically likely scenario based on the trends here and you ask for that kind of analytical knowledge.

- Facts and science are dormant on themselves, they are abstractions whose nature is being encoded as bits and bytes of information. Your ego pushes them onto people here, it is not seeing what is - which I've outlined for you carefully in my previous comment - it is deluding itself from the truth that there is very little point to argue in current setup - and that you could spend your precious life energy and time to reach other people and in other setups - as I again outlined before. 

"I am concerned with actions taken in the present moment. Isn't that supposed to be all that exists?"

- Please do not get into that, you are not versed enough in this matter at the moment. In short nothing exists and nothing matters. But it's probably not what you need at a place where you are right now.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Alex K

[Emerald]

22 minutes ago, Alex K said:

@Neill 

- It is not about excuses and it is not vague, it is a very logically likely scenario based on the trends here and you ask for that kind of analytical knowledge.

- Facts and science are dormant on themselves, they are abstractions whose nature is being encoded as bits and bytes of information. Your ego pushes them onto people here, it is not seeing what is - which I've outlined for you carefully in my previous comment - it is deluding itself from the truth that there is very little point to argue in current setup - and that you could spend your precious life energy and time to reach other people and in other setups - as I again outlined before. 

"I am concerned with actions taken in the present moment. Isn't that supposed to be all that exists?"

- Please do not get into that, you are not versed enough in this matter at the moment. In short nothing exists and nothing matters. But it's probably not what you need at a place where you are right now.

You're bringing facts into a feelings fight. Be careful, as a seeker, not to fall into the trap of using an objective understanding of truth to lie to yourself. Don't consult your mind, consult your heart. If you can, with full emotional awareness still contribute to the suffering caused by the meat and dairy industry, there is nothing wrong with that on the existential level. It means nothing about your value as a person and never can. But if you're skirting the awareness of the destructiveness of these social patterns by emotionally hiding behind an abstract understanding of existential truth, then you're engaging in spiritual bypassing. I mean no judgment in what I'm saying. I just want you to be aware, that it's possible to use the understanding of higher truths to resist and insulate yourself from reality. So, I recommend watching some slaughterhouse documentaries and really becoming aware of what's going on. If you can still eat meat and dairy, then that's what it is. But don't avoid the awareness. 

Edit: Sorry, I thought your last message was about Veganism. I read your comment through that lens. Either way, I'm going to leave the comment here. 

Edited November 11, 2016 by Emerald Wilkins

[Alex K]

@Emerald Wilkins Very nice challenging wording, double hard for me to get through as a non-native speaker) Well, probably it's for you as well to read what I've written below - for me it is a survival instinct and logic not to become fully aware of that vids. I'm very impressionable and I have so much questions and so little energy, I don't want my emotions to hijack me into veganising myself at all costs. They see me bitching, I'm rolling, da da da.... 

@Neill  As for me, I would be happy if tomorrow a law would be issued - no meat at all in the parts of the worlds where beans are plenty etc. Without that I just don't have power in me to learn how to make vegeterian diet complete in nutrients, how to get food as delicious and as simply and as cheap as chicken with pasta for example. Noone around me is vegan, there are controversies to pure veganism among scientists, in my country I believe it is forbidden to make children below 14 years old follow vegan diet, there is virtually no knowledge of vegan cooking and no nutrients complete vegan foods available in shops and cafes. I can't cook much more then eggs myself. All that makes me choosing to go for meditation for that 30 minutes of quality time I have per day instead of starting learning how to cook, how to cook nice vegan food, how to get it right nutrients vise, how to deal with meat cravings etc. I know that chicken is like 20% of harm of cows, so I eat chicken only and even that I eat twice a week maybe. But still I eat all the types of dairy products. Is dairy really as bad as cow meat death toll vise and for the planet? I would not thought like that logically, am I wrong? I tried almond and tofu milk half year ago for a month. It tastes bad and costs 5 times more than milk and there is no tofu cheese available and soy cream, which basically make my diet. There is a film about sugar where main hero tries sugary diet for 30 days, before that he tells us 70% of his calories come from avocado and nuts fats. So cream and cheese are my avocados and fats! We don't have freaking avocados where I live, like at all! And nuts cost 6 times as much as cheese, 12 times as much as 20% cream! Even my teeth are not good enough to chew the nuts and getting all crowns is out of the question financially and emotionally for me right now) What should I do? So much bitching, at least it's out finally. Sorry for the readers.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Alex K

[Neill]

1 hour ago, Alex K said:

- Please do not get into that, you are not versed enough in this matter at the moment. In short nothing exists and nothing matters. But it's probably not what you need at a place where you are right now.

hahahah sure buddy. maybe it's exactly what you need right now looking at that huge ego-filled wall of excuses above me. I mean, "nothing matters", right? so what exactly is stopping you from making compassionate choices? maybe you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about just like the rest of us here and are simply inserting these "spiritual tidbits" into your belief system to excuse your egoic behavior patterns.

Why can't anyone just say they don't give a fuck? what is all this egoic nonsense? That's as fine a reason as any, that you simply don't care. But no one will say that, the cognitive dissonance is just too much. You need to feed yourself justifications to align your actions with "good, moral behavior". Emerald explained it very well- "Do not use any sort of objective understanding of truth to lie to yourself. You're skirting around being aware of the destructiveness of these social patterns by emotionally hiding behind an abstract understanding of existential truth."

Stop it. If someone wants to say they don't care, that's fine, but if you try to excuse away or ignore or belittle any part of the reality behind our animal agriculture industry, I am going to bring it right back to the forefront and throw that self-justification back at you.

So you're in Moscow, yes?

http://www.thenomadicvegan.com/vegan-in-russia-meet-victoria/
https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/more-beets-less-meat-as-vegans-take-moscow-47462

"A: Well, traditionally Russian cuisine is very vegan friendly. In the past, Russian peasants were mostly plant eaters, as they could not afford to eat meat often. Instead, they ate lots of grains, root vegetables, mushrooms, fruits and berries. But the Soviet times changed many traditions, including the cuisine. After the Second World War, the Soviet leaders followed the idea that people should eat meat every day to be strong and healthy, and tried to catch up with the US in meat consumption. The meat-eating propaganda was very powerful, and it’s still working.

To answer the question, yes, most Russian dishes can be easily veganized. You can check out my blog post with Russian vegan recipes."

Edited November 11, 2016 by Neill

[Alex K]

@Neill Well my wall of excuses exactly shows that I give a fuck and a rather neurotic one at that) So I've read http://www.vegelicacy.com/blog/12/russian-vegan-recipes - it is basically 95% carbohydrates, which I believe is not deemed very healthy by nutritionists.  Where are the fats and proteins? Btw, I do not need Russian-only recipes as I do not know how to cook whatsoever - it is all the same to me) What I need is a good stuff on how to make it cheap, easy and complete in all the macro and micro nutrients we need. Could you help me with that? 

You colourfull articles do not meet reality - even for the single chain of veg cafes in Moscow http://www.jagannath.ru/ I need to make a 40 minutes trip on top of my 70 min commute and pay three times as much to get filled as in normal eatery on the first floor of my business center. Bitching again niiice. And while I visited some "normal" towns - there is no such places literally AT ALL.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Alex K