Veganism And Ethics

[WaveInTheOcean]

"What the vegan/vegetarian argument tends to ignore is that just as many animals are killed in the production of plant-based foods on a calorie per calorie basis"

What a claim to make without any references/evidence/links. :-)

Sure, some animals are killed in production of plant-based foods. Like when creating new fields for soy and grain production, sure some animals lose their land and die. And sure when the combines go crazy , sure some rabbits etc get killed, although I suspect some must be able to hear the gigantic machines and run away. WHen the combines go crazy, at least the rabbits etc die a clean, quick death. 

Being a pig/cow in a farm is like being a slave. There is nothing wrong with death in itself. 

Anyway, even though some animals are killed by the production of plant-based foods, your argument is extremely weak due to 2 points:

1. it's 100% less than the  50+ billion land animals getting slaugthered each year globally on a farm for the enjoy of meat-eaters.
2. a very large percentage (like 30-50%) of all grain produced worldwide is fed to livestock. Which also means that meat-eaters require many times more land than vegans. 

[WaveInTheOcean]

On 29/10/2016 at 4:57 AM, Prabhaker said:

The lighter the food, the deeper goes the meditation. The grosser the food, then meditation becomes more and more difficult.

If you really want to move in deep meditation your body needs to be weightless, natural, flowing. 

Your body needs to be unloaded; and a non-vegetarian’s body is very loaded. 

"light" food vs gross food

"deep" meditation vs light meditation

"weightless" body vs weighted body

"nautral' body vs unnatural body

"flowing" body vs unflowing body

"loaded body vs unloaded body"

All based on whether you eat meat or not.

Concepts, concepts, concepts, concepts, and then some more concepts. Beliefs, beliefs, beliefs on top of more beliefs.

To me, it's extremely obvious that you are just making up these beliefs/concepts, because they fit nicely with your vegan/vegetarian lifestyle, you have chosen.

Let's stick to reality, please

[WaveInTheOcean]

21 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

@WaveInTheOcean Ethics are beliefs of what one should or shouldn't do. What is right and what is wrong. Higher consciousness is about seeing through those beliefs.

Oh yeah, my mistake I guess for labeling the topic ethics. The point of this thread was actually to discuss if it is possible for a person with very high 'consciousness' (say a person like Leo, who claim to have that) to each day go down the store and support the livestock industry by exchanging $$$ for some nice yummy delicious-tasting bacon, beef, chicken, you name it. (My mouth is watering, brb, going to fridge!)

Back: And thus contributing to more baby-pigs and calves getting born out of nothingness into existence with only one purpose: the taste of their bodies' meat tastes good, the enjoyment of eating bacon, a nice burger, mhmhm.
Basically getting born into slavery.
Is it possible for a high-consciousness-being to support the livestock industry?

Well.

Are animals conscious beings? Yes.
Is it in alignment with a pig's/cow's nature to stand compressed together in a stable their whole life?

Edited October 30, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[Leo Gura]

This issue goes very deep. It's really the problem of life itself. The fundamental dynamics of life are very unfair. For some lifeforms to survive others must die. Whether that be animals, plants, bacteria, human beings, children in Africa, the dinosaurs, planet Earth itself, etc.

If we take a look a what humanity is doing to itself, it's killing itself at the same time as its growing and evolving. And this is sorta required by the laws of entropy. Even if we all became perfect vegans, we would still be killing other animals, plants, and smaller organisms in a very unfair way by the billions. We would still be destroying the environment.

None of this of course is an excuse not to improve, but it just goes to show the intractability of being alive. To be alive requires a sort of turning one's eye away from fairness. Cause life isn't fair at all to individual beings.

The great Jain sage Mahavira realized this. First he stopped eating animals. But that wasn't enough. So he stopped eating plants. And then he starved himself to death. That would be the only truly honest solution.

Which brings us to the crux of the problem: YOU!

Do you want to live? Most people do (although that's a choice). But if you do, then you must also accept all the collateral damage that comes with that. And there's A LOT of it!

Now, the only question is, where do you want to draw the line. At pigs? At worms? At trees? At bacteria? At saving the whales? At recycling Coke cans? At not throwing your garbage into the street? At starving yourself to death? Everyone will have different opinions about that depending on their beliefs and level of consciousness.

Generally speaking, the more one becomes spiritually purified and experiences personal suffering, the more one will desire to minimize suffering for other beings. But that's not as easy as it sounds, for you couldn't even walk on the grass to the nearest cliff to jump off of without stepping on some worms, snails, ticks, microbes, or flowers.

Is factory farming unfair to animals? Surely so. The issue is one of convenience though. How much inconvenience should be tolerated? Is it wrong for me to buy a new t-shirt when there are kids around the world dying of cold or mosquito bites without a single shirt to wear? And is it wrong for the mosquito to bite the naked kid and infect him with malaria? And is it wrong for us to wage war against malaria micro-organisms by the billions?

You be the judge.

[Esoteric]

You could also make the argument that having kids is way more destructive than eating meat if you think long term. That will potentially spawn generations of suffering right there. So if you want to be environmental and responsible then don't procreate. If the majority followed this simple decision the earth would be significantly more awesome in a couple hundred years. 

[DoubleYou]

Eating animals isn't even the problem. It's just how damn unconscious we have become of the process. We don't call them cows or chickens, we call them burgers and nuggets. Not caring where it came from. It creates a safe distance. It's the unconsciousness that creates all suffering. 

Eat all the meat you want. Just be more conscious. Behind closed doors, animals die for you, not so that you may live but for the satisfaction of your taste buds. Not saying that it's wrong. If you're fine with that then that's great. It's just reality. 

I asked myself this: Can I look the animal I'm about to eat in it's eyes right before killing it? The answer was no. So I chose not to look away and let someone else do it for me. If you can say yes. Again, totally fine. And if you say no, at least acknowledge you're looking away.

Edited October 31, 2016 by DoubleYou

[Prabhaker]

8 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

"light" food vs gross food

"deep" meditation vs light meditation

"weightless" body vs weighted body

"nautral' body vs unnatural body

"flowing" body vs unflowing body

"loaded body vs unloaded body"

All based on whether you eat meat or not.

Concepts, concepts, concepts, concepts, and then some more concepts. Beliefs, beliefs, beliefs on top of more beliefs.

To me, it's extremely obvious that you are just making up these beliefs/concepts, because they fit nicely with your vegan/vegetarian lifestyle, you have chosen.

Let's stick to reality, please

I can explain all these terms, even if you understand it intellectually , it is not going to do any good. Unless you find through your awareness that eating meat is nonessential, become more and more conscious, become more and more aware, and let your awareness decide.

It's like a man who climbs the mountain and all the time brings a lot of stones. Perhaps even carrying the stones, you can reach the top of the mountain, but it creates unnecessary complexity. You could throw the stones, you could relieve yourself and your ascent could become easier, more pleasant.

[Prabhaker]

Difficult Situation For Buddha, cunning mind of man

One day a Buddhist monk came with a very puzzled look. He said, ”I am in a strange difficulty. A bird flying dropped a piece of meat into my begging bowl. I was coming back from begging in the city, to settle under some tree” – in the garden where they were staying – ”to eat my food. Now the problem is, if I throw out this piece of meat I am going against your teaching that, ‘Everything has to be eaten that falls into your begging bowl.’ And if I eat it, I am still going against your teaching of, ‘Always be vegetarian.’ Now what am I supposed to do?”

The whole assembly of monks also were in a strange position: how is Buddha going to solve it?

Buddha thought, ”If I say ‘throw it’, that will become a universal thing. People will start choosing: whatever is good, delicious they will eat and the remaining they will throw out. The country supports the monks. This will be against the people who are supporting you. With great hardship they earn, and you throw away their food. So I cannot say to throw it out.

”And as far as birds are concerned, it is very unlikely that again, in the centuries following, any bird will repeat this. So there is no danger, if only one person eats on one day a small piece of meat.”

He said, ”Eat everything that has fallen into your begging bowl.”

And this became for the cunning mind of man a loophole, that, ”Buddha is not against meat; just you have not to kill, he is against killing. If meat is given to you, offered to you, you have to respectfully receive it.”

So now in China and Japan, all the Buddhists are non-vegetarian. And in many food shop, restaurant they make it clear that here non-vegetarian food is available which has not been especially killed – it is from animals dying on their own.

Now, so many animals don’t die on their own.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Prabhaker said:

A bird flying dropped a piece of meat into my begging bowl.

The biggest load of bullshit ever told!

Buddha should have slapped that guy across the face for such smart-assery

Monk: "Buddha, what do I do if a bird drops a fine 18oz NY strip into my bowl?"

Buddha: "Eat it, but only if it also drops a bottle of A1."

[WaveInTheOcean]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Generally speaking, the more one becomes spiritually purified and experiences personal suffering, the more one will desire to minimize suffering for other beings. But that's not as easy as it sounds, for you couldn't even walk on the grass to the nearest cliff to jump off of without stepping on some worms, snails, ticks, microbes, or flowers.

I would argue that only ego's are able to suffer in this world. Then I would further argue that microbes and plants don't have any ego. They experience absolutely zero personal suffering, because they are not personlalized. They have no persona. They have no ego. They are NOT individual separated begins. They just are. The flower doesn't care if you burn it, eat it, stamp on it or w/e you do with it. Same with the microbe.

Now to me at least, obviously a cow, a pig, a dog, a chicken are, on the other hand, very much able to suffer. They ARE individual separated beings. They DO care. They are personalized. They do have ego's. Why? Well, first of all because they have nervous systems (brains) that are constructed in the general same way as my brain, as a human being. Secondly, just by observing them, you can see they do have feelings.

Now, insects and worms - I don't actually know. Hard to say.

But I find it utterly absurd to put plants & microbes on the same footing as animals.

Edited October 31, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[Key Elements]

@Prabhaker

Some of the things you say sound romanticized. Leo and others here just want to get down to the bottom line and hear truth.

I think you made up this story, added a few lines for drama, because I never heard this story.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Key Elements

[Prabhaker]

1 hour ago, Key Elements said:

I think you made up this story, added a few lines for drama, because I never heard this story.

http://seedsofwisdom.tumblr.com/post/113860080514/osho-talks-about-crow

1 hour ago, Key Elements said:

just want to get down to the bottom line and hear truth

Truth can't be said, something can be said about truth. Truth is always paradoxical. Vegetarian food can be taken in a quantity (too much or too less) and in a manner (too oily, spicy) , which makes meditation difficult. Food eaten in a hurry, less consciously , when not chewed properly can create difficulty.

It is not all about food, but the person who is taking that food is also important. Become more and more conscious, become more and more aware, you will know what to eat, how to eat. 

[Key Elements]

@Prabhaker

Thanks for the story! I wanted to hear that. Now I'm wondering why didn't you tell Leo? Looks like he was also having doubts of why you told the story.

For me, I can't follow any stories 100%. I have to experience on my own and find truth in my own way. No one single story or material worked for me so far, including becoming vegetarian to vegan. I guess we're all unique - we can't find truth in the same ways.

[Neill]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This issue goes very deep. It's really the problem of life itself. The fundamental dynamics of life are very unfair. For some lifeforms to survive others must die. Whether that be animals, plants, bacteria, human beings, children in Africa, the dinosaurs, planet Earth itself, etc.

If we take a look a what humanity is doing to itself, it's killing itself at the same time as its growing and evolving. And this is sorta required by the laws of entropy. Even if we all became perfect vegans, we would still be killing other animals, plants, and smaller organisms in a very unfair way by the billions. We would still be destroying the environment.

None of this of course is an excuse not to improve, but it just goes to show the intractability of being alive. To be alive requires a sort of turning one's eye away from fairness. Cause life isn't fair at all to individual beings.

The great Jain sage Mahavira realized this. First he stopped eating animals. But that wasn't enough. So he stopped eating plants. And then he starved himself to death. That would be the only truly honest solution.

Which brings us to the crux of the problem: YOU!

Do you want to live? Most people do (although that's a choice). But if you do, then you must also accept all the collateral damage that comes with that. And there's A LOT of it!

Now, the only question is, where do you want to draw the line. At pigs? At worms? At trees? At bacteria? At saving the whales? At recycling Coke cans? At not throwing your garbage into the street? At starving yourself to death? Everyone will have different opinions about that depending on their beliefs and level of consciousness.

Generally speaking, the more one becomes spiritually purified and experiences personal suffering, the more one will desire to minimize suffering for other beings. But that's not as easy as it sounds, for you couldn't even walk on the grass to the nearest cliff to jump off of without stepping on some worms, snails, ticks, microbes, or flowers.

Is factory farming unfair to animals? Surely so. The issue is one of convenience though. How much inconvenience should be tolerated? Is it wrong for me to buy a new t-shirt when there are kids around the world dying of cold or mosquito bites without a single shirt to wear? And is it wrong for the mosquito to bite the naked kid and infect him with malaria? And is it wrong for us to wage war against malaria micro-organisms by the billions?

You be the judge.

WOW. I had no idea Leo would make such a delusional comment. Jesus christ. Do you honestly not see the self-justification monkey mind at work here? Man I almost don't want to watch any of his future videos. Take a step back and examine what you're actually telling yourself here. I can't get into this any more. I can't believe you're likening the single most destructive human act possible to "stepping on microbes on the grass". Why can't there be a single fucking decent human being on this shitty planet.

[Neill]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Even if we all became perfect vegans, we would still be killing other animals, plants, and smaller organisms in a very unfair way by the billions. We would still be destroying the environment.

NO. WE. WOULD. NOT.

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But if you do, then you must also accept all the collateral damage that comes with that. And there's A LOT of it!

Yes, of course there is a bit of collateral damage that you must accept. This does not include contributing to the worst industry in existence when you can walk down to the supermarket and buy whatever the fuck you want!
 

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Now, the only question is, where do you want to draw the line. At pigs? At worms? At trees? At bacteria? At saving the whales? At recycling Coke cans? At not throwing your garbage into the street? At starving yourself to death? Everyone will have different opinions about that depending on their beliefs and level of consciousness.

So there's this thing called "logical thinking". It allows us humans to operate in pretty efficient ways and make decent decisions, given our situation. So yes, there IS a line you are VERY well able to draw, but it appears that you would rather just say fuck everyone else, I prefer stimulation of my taste buds as opposed to the fucking destruction of our planet.
 

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Generally speaking, the more one becomes spiritually purified and experiences personal suffering, the more one will desire to minimize suffering for other beings. But that's not as easy as it sounds, for you couldn't even walk on the grass to the nearest cliff to jump off of without stepping on some worms, snails, ticks, microbes, or flowers.

Is factory farming unfair to animals? Surely so. The issue is one of convenience though. How much inconvenience should be tolerated? Is it wrong for me to buy a new t-shirt when there are kids around the world dying of cold or mosquito bites without a single shirt to wear? And is it wrong for the mosquito to bite the naked kid and infect him with malaria? And is it wrong for us to wage war against malaria micro-organisms by the billions?

You be the judge.

YES IT IS AS EASY AS IT SOUNDS. WHY ARE YOU LITERALLY INVENTING EXCUSES FOR YOURSELF. Christ how many times have I heard the shitty 'but kids are dying of malaria in africa' bullshit. Please do not talk about being "spiritually purified" anymore.

[Neill]

5 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

Do you honestly not see the self-justification monkey mind at work here?

No I do not. Maybe when you're ready to actually talk specifics about why this is so, like I have in all my previous comments, you can join the conversation. Until then, bugger off and keep your snide remarks to yourself.

[Neill]

Just now, NTOgen said:

So really you don't see that everything you write here is to justify yourself?

So really is all you're able to do is make snide remarks instead of actual discussion points? This isn't about me, this is about the ethics of veganism. Ad-hominems are meaningless.

[Neill]

lol sure buddy. whatever helps ya sleep at night.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Neill

[Neill]

13 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

Just asking the very same question you were asking.

Which I backed up with explanations. You need to include why you think these posts are nonsense self-justifications, or, well, they're not.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Neill

[Neill]

Just now, NTOgen said:

I'm not trying to justify myself. It's up to you whether you want to take a fresh look or stick with being loud and antsy.

hahahahah man who do you think you're kidding here. it's obvious you have nothing of substance to actually talk about so, bye now!

Edited October 31, 2016 by Neill