Veganism And Ethics

[WaveInTheOcean]

I'm posting this topic here and not in nutrition, as this is not about food and it's relation to health.

This is about ethics.

What we as finite minds relatively see as brains/'systems of neurons' is obviously what allows Infinity to play the game of life - to see itself as a finite mind.
We are all one consciousness. I'm as much the pig getting slaugthered in the slaughterhouse as I am this dude typing this text. 
 

This is how pigs gets sedated in Denmark before they get slaughtered. Doesn't seem so nice. And Denmark is arguably supposed to be a country where animal welfare is 'better than average'.

Eating meat is something we in the western world do only for pleasurement (it tastes good). There are zero health benefits and we absolutely don't need to survive to eat meat, but can do just fine on non-meat-food-sources.

An argument for saying 'ok to eating meat' could be that as long as the animals have a decent life until they get slaughtered, then it's fine - because the animals doesn't know they are going to die, they live in blisfull ignorance, and we all know that death itself is perfectly neutral and 'fine' as long as 

1. the conscious being getting killed doesn't suffer before getting killed in any way (anxiety, bad mood or pain)
2. no conscious beings are left alive that are hurt by the departure of their friend/beloved one

When an airplane with 100 young children crashes and they all get killed - well it's not sad for the children, they died quickly and painless and are no more. Perfect bliss in a sense. However it's sad for the relatives to the children - they are most likely destroyed due to natural egoic reasons.

Anyway, obviously, we more or less treat agriculture animals like slaves. Isn't it obvious that they are getting hurt in some way (as in the video)? 
As you reading this text is just as much the pigs getting killed in the video, why do you endorse the proces above by buying pork roast for Christmas?

Let's have a discussion. Please don't talk about health benefits (or cons if they exist) of going vegan/vegetarian - this thread is NOT for that.

[Azrael]

And here, I see just another time God taking the form of a suffering human being that persists in the illusion that the world isn't perfect as it is. That pain and suffering are really bad and need to be diminished. That the killing of innocent animals is any different from a wonderful flower growing in peace. It isn't. It's a fucking game and as long as you take any of it seriously, you'll fight for one side or the other. When you stop engaging in it seriously and just look curiously how it can be that there is such an amount of beauty on the one hand and such an amount of suffering on the other, you'll find out that God aka it / Tao / nothingness / ... needs and wants to express any limitation there could be because it is so infinite, peaceful and complete in its non-dualistic essence. Every dualistic game there is is just the counterpart of the non-dual bliss out of everything arises. See that, and you'll laugh yourself silly.

Cheers (...and don't take my rant here to personally, I'm merely having fun with my very limited opinions - you are of course right that we humans are all to bad killing these innocent animals and eating their fucking delicious meat on 3 occasions in the day not giving a shit at all ... fuck I did it again )

[Esoteric]

As someone who is neighboring Denmark I can say that Danish ethics when it comes to pig farming is not good at all, and are often debated here (Sweden). The cheapest meat you can buy here is Danish meat because they generally have 25% less space for pigs to move than here. So you are bringing up a country with a notoriously bad reputation when it comes to pig farming and act like it is "business as usual". It's not.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Esoteric

[justaguy]

Listen to your body. It does not like bullshit. Probably it will say to you that you should not eat to much meat. For sure not from farms. Wild is much better, especially fishes who have very weak nervous system.

[Emerald]

My thought is that, if I can't watch the killing process happening, then I probably shouldn't be eating meat... or dairy since the diary industry causes just as much death and suffering. I try not to judge things as good/bad or right/wrong as I know that all is one. And that one thing can't really be harmed. However, on the more practical level, I know that I wouldn't want it done to me and I can't even watch it without being disturbed about it for days. So, I choose not to eat meat and I don't eat dairy unless I have no other choice, as my family is struggling financially right now. So, I don't always have the option right now to cut it out as I'm working with just the basic stuff that my family has in the house, which sometimes contains dairy. But as soon as we're back to being financial stable, I'm cutting out dairy again. 

[Prabhaker]

If you meditate long enough, deep enough, it is impossible for you to hurt anybody for food; it is impossible. It is not a question of argument, it is not a question of scriptures, it is not who says what, it is not a question of calculating that if you take vegetarian food you will become spiritual; it is automatic. The whole thing seems so absurd. Just for food, killing animals, birds, seems so absurd, it falls down.

You can be a vegetarian and cruel to the extreme, and violent; you can be a non-vegetarian and kind and loving. In India there are communities who have lived totally with vegetarian food; many Brahmins have lived totally with vegetarian food, but they are not spiritual.

I don’t take non-vegetarian food has nothing to do with religion, it is just pure aesthetics. I am not one who thinks that if you take non-vegetarian food you will not become enlightened. Jesus became enlightened, Mohammed became enlightened, Ramakrishna became enlightened — there has been no problem about it.  Your humanity is at stake, not your super-humanity. 

 Just to think that you are killing an animal to eat, just the very idea, is unaesthetic. I am not against it because the animal is killed… because that which is essential in the animal will live, it cannot be killed, and that which is nonessential, whether you kill it or not, is going to die. 

The question is not that you have killed the animal and killing is not good, no. The question is that you have killed the animal — you. Just to eat? While good vegetarian food is available? If vegetarian food is not available, that’s one thing. But the food is available. Then why? Then why destroy a body? And if you can kill an animal, then why not be a cannibal? What is wrong with killing a man? The meat derived from a human body will be more in tune with you. Why not start eating human beings? That too is a question of aesthetics.

It has nothing to do with meditation. You can eat meat and you can meditate. You can eat meat and you can love. It has nothing to do with love either. But you will be showing one thing about yourself — that you are very crude, that you are very primitive, uncultured, uncivilized; that you don’t have any sense of how life should be. 

[Neill]

On 10/26/2016 at 10:50 PM, Prabhaker said:

If you meditate long enough, deep enough, it is impossible for you to hurt anybody for food; it is impossible. It is not a question of argument, it is not a question of scriptures, it is not who says what, it is not a question of calculating that if you take vegetarian food you will become spiritual; it is automatic. The whole thing seems so absurd. Just for food, killing animals, birds, seems so absurd, it falls down.

You can be a vegetarian and cruel to the extreme, and violent; you can be a non-vegetarian and kind and loving. In India there are communities who have lived totally with vegetarian food; many Brahmins have lived totally with vegetarian food, but they are not spiritual.

I don’t take non-vegetarian food has nothing to do with religion, it is just pure aesthetics. I am not one who thinks that if you take non-vegetarian food you will not become enlightened. Jesus became enlightened, Mohammed became enlightened, Ramakrishna became enlightened — there has been no problem about it.  Your humanity is at stake, not your super-humanity. 

 Just to think that you are killing an animal to eat, just the very idea, is unaesthetic. I am not against it because the animal is killed… because that which is essential in the animal will live, it cannot be killed, and that which is nonessential, whether you kill it or not, is going to die. 

The question is not that you have killed the animal and killing is not good, no. The question is that you have killed the animal — you. Just to eat? While good vegetarian food is available? If vegetarian food is not available, that’s one thing. But the food is available. Then why? Then why destroy a body? And if you can kill an animal, then why not be a cannibal? What is wrong with killing a man? The meat derived from a human body will be more in tune with you. Why not start eating human beings? That too is a question of aesthetics.

It has nothing to do with meditation. You can eat meat and you can meditate. You can eat meat and you can love. It has nothing to do with love either. But you will be showing one thing about yourself — that you are very crude, that you are very primitive, uncultured, uncivilized; that you don’t have any sense of how life should be. 

spot on!!   

[WaveInTheOcean]

Well, not quite spot on, as many people who have meditated for years / done 5-MeO / have had awakenings like Azrael, Leo, Tolle etc still eat meat. 

[Prabhaker]

18 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Well, not quite spot on, as many people who have meditated for years / done 5-MeO / have had awakenings like Azrael, Leo, Tolle etc still eat meat. 

The lighter the food, the deeper goes the meditation. The grosser the food, then meditation becomes more and more difficult. I am not saying that meditation is impossible for a non-vegetarian — it is not impossible, but it is unnecessarily difficult. If you really want to move in deep meditation your body needs to be weightless, natural, flowing. Your body needs to be unloaded; and a non-vegetarian’s body is very loaded. The higher you are trying to reach, the more and more you will have to drop any unnecessary luggage.

18 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

many people who have meditated for years

Meditation is not a technique. So the work of the techniques is just to prepare the ground, is just to prepare the way, the passage. The techniques in themselves are not meditation. Techniques are needed to remove the obstacles in the way of meditation. Meditation itself cannot remove them, certain techniques are needed to remove them.

Practicing technique for years doesn't mean a person is living meditatively for years. Practicing technique for years is not a guarantee for awakening. 

I said that " If you meditate long enough, deep enough, it is impossible for you to hurt anybody for food " , There is difference between killing an animal  and eating meat of already killed animal.

 I am not saying if you take non-vegetarian food you will not become enlightened, but it is unnecessarily burden. 

 

[Neill]

On 10/28/2016 at 3:39 AM, WaveInTheOcean said:

Well, not quite spot on, as many people who have meditated for years / done 5-MeO / have had awakenings like Azrael, Leo, Tolle etc still eat meat. 

Then I'm sorry but they still have work to do. There is absolutely zero reason to consume meat. The only fundamental reason why they continue to do so is to satisfy their cravings. If they had no cravings they would not spend their time and energy contributing to the single most destructive human act possible. As Leo said- once your awareness reaches a certain point, low consciousness action becomes impossible to continue. They are not fully aware of the consequences of their actions and the alternatives available.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Neill

[ChimpBrain]

What the vegan/vegetarian argument tends to ignore is that just as many animals are killed in the production of plant-based foods on a calorie per calorie basis. If you've ever spent time on a commercial sized farm you know how many rabbits, mice, ground nesting birds, etc, get chewed up in combines. You could make the argument that those conscious creatures are less valuable than a cows/pig. Or you could make the argument that it's all about intent. I'm not sure I can agree with either, but I'm certainly open to opinions. 

I'm a meat eater who's open to the idea of becoming a vegetarian. I've gone down a rabbit hole on this argument from environmental and ethical angles and frankly both sides make good arguments but I've never found either convincing enough to buy into their ideology completely. Too much spin, cherry picking data, talking past one another, etc, on both sides of the debate. As with just about any other set of opposing ideologies, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. 

[Bob84]

Ethics is a concept of the mind/ego.

[WelcometoReality]

@WaveInTheOcean Ethics are beliefs of what one should or shouldn't do. What is right and what is wrong. Higher consciousness is about seeing through those beliefs.

[Neill]

23 hours ago, ChimpBrain said:

What the vegan/vegetarian argument tends to ignore is that just as many animals are killed in the production of plant-based foods on a calorie per calorie basis. If you've ever spent time on a commercial sized farm you know how many rabbits, mice, ground nesting birds, etc, get chewed up in combines. You could make the argument that those conscious creatures are less valuable than a cows/pig. Or you could make the argument that it's all about intent. I'm not sure I can agree with either, but I'm certainly open to opinions. 

I'm a meat eater who's open to the idea of becoming a vegetarian. I've gone down a rabbit hole on this argument from environmental and ethical angles and frankly both sides make good arguments but I've never found either convincing enough to buy into their ideology completely. Too much spin, cherry picking data, talking past one another, etc, on both sides of the debate. As with just about any other set of opposing ideologies, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. 

Oh, the ignorance. I suggest you do some actual research before commenting again.

Modern day animal agriculture is the primary driver behind almost every single major environmental illness our planet faces today- deforestation, ocean acidification, global warming.. all progressing at alarming rates. This is the toll that slaughtering two billion lives every week takes. For some perspective, only 100 billion humans have ever lived in all of history. A cow farm of 2,500 produces as much waste as hundreds of thousands of humans, releasing that much methane, many times more potent that CO2, into our atmosphere. If you want some more statistics I'd recommend checking out documentaries. Here are some actual facts for your brain: www.cowspiracy.com/facts

We are losing an enormous amount of biodiversity every single day, for what? What is all of this death and destruction for? Something as inconsequential as a palette preference? This has gone way too far and needs to stop. This is not the "circle of life", this is systematic genocide that is harming not only other perfectly sentient, completely emotional beings, but ourselves and our planet.

Aren't we supposed to be striving towards enlightenment along with a more holistic view of the world? One of the core consequences of the no-self philosophy is that compassion and love become principles of the highest order, and one cannot claim to have attained that while still contributing to this system. That is an action taken with low consciousness and awareness.

You are the one cherry-picking data here. The truth is not "somewhere in the middle". The consequences are extremely well-known and all this data is publicly available, but, as we can see, the ego loves to feed lower consciousness humans with these ridiculous self-justifications. Take a step back and look at what is happening without your personal cravings and ego in the way.
 

Quote

"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the 'Universe,' a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest – a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."

-- Albert Einstein

 

Edited October 30, 2016 by Neill

[ChimpBrain]

5 minutes ago, Neill said:

Oh, the ignorance. I suggest you do some actual research before commenting again.

Modern day animal agriculture is the primary driver behind almost every single major environmental illness our planet faces today- deforestation, ocean acidification, global warming.. all progressing at alarming rates. This is the toll that slaughtering two billion lives every week takes. For some perspective, only 100 billion humans have ever lived in all of history. A cow farm of 2,500 produces as much waste as hundreds of thousands of humans, releasing that much methane, many times more potent that CO2, into our atmosphere. If you want some more statistics I'd recommend checking out documentaries. Here are some actual facts for your brain: www.cowspiracy.com/facts

We are losing an enormous amount of biodiversity every single day, for what? What is all of this death and destruction for? Something as inconsequential as a palette preference? This has gone way too far and needs to stop. This is not the "circle of life", this is systematic genocide that is harming not only other perfectly sentient, completely emotional beings, but ourselves and our planet.

Aren't we supposed to be striving towards enlightenment along with a more holistic view of the world? One of the core consequences of the no-self philosophy is that compassion and love become principles of the highest order, and one cannot claim to have attained that while still contributing to this system. That is an action taken with low consciousness and awareness.

You are the one cherry-picking data here. The truth is not "somewhere in the middle". The consequences are extremely well-known and all this data is publicly available, but, as we can see, the ego loves to feed lower consciousness humans with these ridiculous self-justifications. Take a step back and look at what is happening without your personal cravings and ego in the way.
 

 

I've watched that documentary as well as several others, but thanks for that radiant burst of presumption, ego and dogmatism. I've also critically considered the opposing sides arguments from as unbiased a perspective as I can muster, and came to the conclusion I've already stated. I'm glad to see you have your mind made up about the situation, but there's no need to act like an asshole just because I came to a different conclusion than you. Peace and chicken grease

[Neill]

19 minutes ago, ChimpBrain said:

I've watched that documentary as well as several others, but thanks for that radiant burst of presumption, ego and dogmatism. I've also critically considered the opposing sides arguments from as unbiased a perspective as I can muster, and came to the conclusion I've already stated. I'm glad to see you have your mind made up about the situation, but there's no need to act like an asshole just because I came to a different conclusion than you. Peace and chicken grease

Pathetic. The only thing you've stated at all is "mice and other rodents get chewed up on some farms", and instead of an actual reply, all you can do is point the finger at some "dogmatic asshole" when the only things I'm talking about are statistics and facts.

You are completely lost. No idea why I keep having this conversation. Just serves to further sever my faith in humanity.

[Esoteric]

18 minutes ago, Neill said:

Pathetic. The only thing you've stated at all is "mice and other rodents get chewed up on some farms", and instead of an actual reply, all you can do is point the finger at some "dogmatic asshole" when the only things I'm talking about are statistics and facts.

You are completely lost. No idea why I keep having this conversation. Just serves to further sever my faith in humanity.

It's funny how so many vegans/vegetarians are so easily agitated and pissed off. Not saying this goes for all vegans but a lot of them really have to market their whole identify around being a vegan. Maybe you should have some meat and see if it calms you down a little?  

[Neill]

1 minute ago, Esoteric said:

It's funny how so many vegans/vegetarians are so easily agitated and pissed off. Not saying this goes for all vegans but a lot of them really have to market their whole identify around being a vegan. Maybe you should have some meat and see if it calms you down a little?  

More ad-hominems, insults, and trolling in place of an actual, coherent response. Wonderful!

[Esoteric]

1 minute ago, Neill said:

More ad-hominems, insults, and trolling in place of an actual, coherent response. Wonderful!

It was a joke. Relax.

[Neill]

1 minute ago, Esoteric said:

It was a joke. Relax.

I am actually quite relaxed, despite your non-sensical assumptions. Of course, our moods have absolutely nothing to do with the conversation at hand. Maybe next time you can actually contribute something!