How to change the blue person's mind and should we do it?

[Opo]

Or at least make them less absolutist. 

In this debate Destiny tries to give arguments using statistics and research for the first 50 minutes with no success.

After that he snaps and starts making up anecdotes and surprisingly they work. 

It's timestamped from the point when he starts doing it. 

I've had similar discussions with these kinds of people and whatever I say some statistic that doesn't support their position they just dismiss it by saying it's fake or they just sit there with a dumb look on their face not being able to integrate it. 

But when I tell them an anecdote that's real they are able to understand it and their empathy expands. 

My dilemma is should I start making stories up when I talk to these types of people? (Of course not to family and friends but to people I won't see a lot.)

Edited April 19, 2021 by Opo

[Preety_India]

Haha. This is like trying to bend a stick. It will break but won't bend. 

Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. 

Sometimes I'm just glad that Blue exists. Weird Pikachu 

 

 

 

[Rilles]

A spiral wizard lets people grow at their own pace. 

[Opo]

13 minutes ago, Rilles said:

A spiral wizard lets people grow at their own pace. 

Doesn't the spiral wizard help people go up? 

[Rilles]

11 minutes ago, Opo said:

Doesn't the spiral wizard help people go up? 

If they are ready for it, truth is most arent, especially Blue people. 

[SamC]

Be you but don't try to get them up, they are not ready yet.

[Parththakkar12]

@Opo You can change a Blue person's mind only if they want to change it. If they don't want to change their mind, it's never going to happen. This is true for anyone, really, but especially Stage Blue people.

Let them take responsibility for changing their mind. Absolutism is a huge thing for Stage Blue people. They haven't realized yet that their conditioning is their conditioning, it's not the absolute truth. They haven't seen that 'I'm conditioned with this morality, that other person is conditioned with that morality. I believe this because I'm conditioned with it, not because it's true! Why can't I successfully debate with and proselytize my morality to the other person if I really do have the absolute truth? Why do debates not work?' They haven't realized that debates don't work, which is why they will proselytize their worldview to others, as if it is the absolute truth. That is a sign of closed-mindedness. Not only do they think that their worldview is absolutely true and not only do they not see the limits of their worldview/conditioning, they think that other people should believe what they believe, they can change other people's minds and that they have the right to proselytize their worldview to others! A lot of Stage Blue people are just too far gone.

Let me remind you though that if you try to change their mind, you would be falling into the very same trap that they're falling into! Proselytization. That is, if you're dealing with a closed-minded person who doesn't want to change their mind and who spends their time proselytizing to others. If you are dealing with an open-minded person who wants to grow though, you could answer their specific questions. Maybe about God, maybe about morality, maybe you could show them the limits of being stuck in their narrow morality and that a world exists outside of it. Maybe about materialism, you could change their mind about materialism if they have an anti-materialistic attitude they were indoctrinated with. Maybe about science, atheism, rationalism, how they're different from religion. Depends on their question though!

Edited April 20, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[trenton]

I have mixed experience with stage blue.  First, I recognize a unique advantage that the pre-rational has over the rational.  Stage blue is more open minded to God as a direct experience.  When I tell deeply religious people that it may be possible to create an experience of God, they light up and listen intently.  I don't go around trying to convert everybody because I realize that not everybody is open minded.  I only tell them If they are ready.

If stage blue is hateful toward other religions, I don't bother trying to convince them.  They are too strict in their worldview and they do not see any validity in other religions.  Sometimes stage blue recognizes the deep similarities they have with other religions.  They even admit that all religions are fallible and written by people.  When they do this, they are more open minded in a way that makes them more loving.  These are the kind of people who can change and might be open to change. 

This is why I only told one of my grandmothers about experiencing God.  She was very grateful to learn about this possibility.  One of my grandmothers is subscribed to the theory that Obama was a Muslim and she seems hateful toward Islam.  I did not tell my siblings or mother because they are not interested in this topic at all.  I could tell my aunt, but someone in the family committed suicide.  I will have to wait until after the funeral to tell her.  My aunt is open to other religions though.

Some deeply religious people will be open to meditation, journaling, shadow work, and more.  I don't tell them about the psychedelics though because in my experience nobody is open minded to that possibility.  I don't really try to convert people.  Instead I work with their worldview.  If I work against them, they will be too stubborn and I may cause more harm than help.  If I run around telling everybody about this, I might further entrench them in their worldview, making them even more toxic and hateful.

As for the specific video you sent, I never ran into stage blue people who are closed to video games.  I think the culture will evolve on its own and I don't need to change anybody on that front.  I can just do my own thing and let progress win out in the end.

If you are interested in working with stage blue, you need to wait for them to be open.  I hope you found this useful.

[Carl-Richard]

19 hours ago, Opo said:

In this debate, Destiny...

I hope you know that this phrase is the biggest meme in the Destiny community 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Roy]

Probably the biggest lesson I've learned in my 28 years of life and unhealthy amounts of time on the internet.................

Is that trying to change peoples minds, proselytize, preach, argue, convince, convert, is a complete and utter waste of time.

People will change when they are ready to change, it's really as simple as that. Don't get sucked in the trap 99.9% of humanity is in.

What you CAN do though is improve yourself and seek higher pieces of knowledge, understanding, and truth. Transform yourself into an ever shining beacon of light that serves as an example, so that those who may come into contact with you might reconsider things and want to change for the better.

If they don't, well that's fine too.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Roy

[Rilles]

22 minutes ago, Roy said:

Probably the biggest lesson I've learned in my 28 years of life and unhealthy amounts of time on the internet.................

Is that trying to change peoples minds, proselytize, preach, argue, convince, convert, is a complete and utter waste of time.

People will change when they are ready to change, it's really as simple as that. Don't get sucked in the trap 99.9% of humanity is in.

What you CAN do though is improve yourself and seek higher pieces of knowledge, understanding, and truth. Transform yourself into an ever shining beacon of light that serves as an example, so that those who may come into contact with you might reconsider things and want to change for the better.

If they don't, well that's fine too.

"Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world, today I am wise so I am changing myself" - Rumi

Edited April 20, 2021 by Rilles

[Opo]

Thanks for the responses. 

Do you have any tips on how to not get sucked in to a debate when they start preaching to me? 

That's my biggest flaw. 

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I hope you know that this phrase is the biggest meme in the Destiny community 

-Didn't know. 

[trenton]

4 hours ago, Opo said:

Thanks for the responses. 

Do you have any tips on how to not get sucked in to a debate when they start preaching to me? 

That's my biggest flaw. 

I ran into a handful of Mormons in the past.  When they start trying to convert me, they start asking why I am not joining the religion.  There are several reasons I could give.  Pick the reasons which are most authentic for you.

1.  Modern religion needs to transform radically in order to properly address sexual abuse in churches, mosques, and synagogues.

2.  Because religious beliefs change over time, it is likely that the religion of today is not the religion of tomorrow.  This is related to the theory of evolution when applied to religion.

3.  I don't know which religion is right and I should wait until I know for sure.

4.  I wish to focus on making life on earth better rather than pursue an after life.

5.  I would rather seek out God as a direct experience rather than as a belief system.

6.  Religion is problematic in its dogmatism.  I don't want to lock myself into a narrow worldview and I am interested in exploring many worldviews.

7.  The beliefs are inauthentic for me and I don't want to wallpaper over my doubts until the day I die.

How frequently do you run into them?  I ran into them on 5 different occasions.  One time I told them that I don't know the most polite way to say no to religion without getting sucked into a debate about why I am not joining them.  This one might be a good response if it is honest for you.  I haven't been bothered by any Mormons since.  I can still be friends with people from all kinds of backgrounds.

[Opo]

10 minutes ago, trenton said:

How frequently do you run into them?  I ran into them on 5 different occasions.  One time I told them that I don't know the most polite way to say no to religion without getting sucked into a debate about why I am not joining them.  This one might be a good response if it is honest for you.  I haven't been bothered by any Mormons since.  I can still be friends with people from all kinds of backgrounds.

I don't have the problem with those kinds of people because i don't care what they think of me so i can just start saying stupid shit until they realize it's pointless and turn around. Those interactions are quite enjoyable actually. 

It's when the family that I rarely see or classmates do it that I get triggered. 

Last time I tried really hard to explain my problems with religion in a nice way and she agreed and then few minutes later she invited me to church. 

That triggered the fuck out of me. 

Next time I feel my mind closing ill try your approach. 

[trenton]

@Opo im sorry to hear that your classmates are annoying you.  If all else fails you can try being honest that you are annoyed by this.  I hope they learn to leave you alone.

[Opo]

@trenton Thanks.

They aren't trying to bother me. They just say so much stupid shit that i have to respond and then I just end up frustrated in the end. 

If I don't take the bait I can let it go and feel great. 

[diamondpenguin]

@Opo @Preety_India Haha. Yall dont understand yet, you can't change anyone. If you try to change someone you will just piss them off or make them depressed. You cant control people, and you cant change people. The only person you can change is yourself. The only person I can change is myself, and even that shit is hard as fuck. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by diamondpenguin

[Preety_India]

@diamondpenguin then why are we watching Leo's videos. 

 

[diamondpenguin]

20 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

@diamondpenguin then why are we watching Leo's videos. 

 

@Preety_India Right, right. Reality is love. I don't know about you, but I been cravin' his next video on integrity, that was some gorgeous philosophy. Always gives me that sort of warm fuzzy buzz. How bout you, how does Leo make you feel? 

[Preety_India]

@diamondpenguin Leo makes me feel protected.