Getting My Covid Vaccine

[Forestluv]

28 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

People should be free to chose and express themselves. It is fine to take the vaccine and it is fine not to.

Individual freedom is only one factor. Individual and social harms are also factors.

Could we say that people should be free to choose and express themselves by drunk driving? The vast majority of people would say "no" because driving drunk significantly increases the risk of harm to both the individual and to society.

Does refusing to get vaccinated increase the risk of individual and societal harm? I would say yes. For example, Michigan is a state with a lot of anti-vaxxers going through a covid spike. Our local city hospital is at capacity and in triage due to an influx of covid patients. 99%+ of them are unvaccinated. Unvaccinated people are putting a stress on the health care system. As well, we are looking at more restrictions - which has a negative impact on the economy and human psychology. 

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, ndm678 said:

I'm concerned the pharmaceutical companies can't be held at fault,

Holding pharmaceuticals at fault gets tricky. It's impossible to design a vaccine for 100s of millions of people that will have zero side effects. If 100s of millions of people at a banana, a few will have adverse reactions. If the bar is a 100% safe vaccine for 100s of millions of people, there will be no vaccine.

As well, people will be quick to blame any health issues they have on the vaccine even if it's unrelated. The courts would be full of people trying to sue pharmaceuticals for whatever health issue arises in their life. For many cases, it would be very difficult to determine whether the health issue was a direct result of the vaccine. More immediate adverse reactions are more obvious, yet we already know these are very rare. 

I think it's more of a regulatory issue of what standards we expect from the pharmaceuticals. If it is gross negligence or lack of integrity, then they should be held accountable. For example, if they are caught omitting some data from the public.

Yet there will be a small percentage of people that got the vaccine in good faith and get serious side effects. There may be someone that was in a grey area of autoimmune disorder and the vaccine bumped them into a health issue. For these cases, I think there should be a government fund that provides the additional health care for free. And depending on the situation, they might be compensated with some disability funding. 

 

[Tetcher]

1 hour ago, Forestluv said:

Individual freedom is only one factor. Individual and social harms are also factors.

Could we say that people should be free to choose and express themselves by drunk driving? The vast majority of people would say "no" because driving drunk significantly increases the risk of harm to both the individual and to society.

Does refusing to get vaccinated increase the risk of individual and societal harm? I would say yes. For example, Michigan is a state with a lot of anti-vaxxers going through a covid spike. Our local city hospital is at capacity and in triage due to an influx of covid patients. 99%+ of them are unvaccinated. Unvaccinated people are putting a stress on the health care system. As well, we are looking at more restrictions - which has a negative impact on the economy and human psychology. 

Hospitals around the world have been tried for a year. It's a tense situation for the healthcare system yet people have the last word when it comes to what they put in their bodies and they shouldn't be harassed for that. I wouldn't compare forbidding drunk driving to forcing people to inject a biologically active substance in their body against their will, the latter would be more comparable to rape to reply to the rape fantasist above.

[Forestluv]

27 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

Hospitals around the world have been tried for a year. It's a tense situation for the healthcare system yet people have the last word when it comes to what they put in their bodies and they shouldn't be harassed for that. 

Again, this is only looking at one component of a system. Individual freedom is only one component. There are many other components including risk and harm to both individual and society. 

The health threat of the vaccine is much lower than the health threat of covid. It isn't even close. Those who refuse to get vaccinated just because they don't want to are negatively impacting society. The virus is spreading through unvaccinated people. People who are unvaccinated are putting stress onto the healthcare system. 99% of people hospitalized for covid are unvaccinated.  Restrictions and shutdowns are due to unvaccinated people. This puts a burden on society. The institution I work at is on the verge of closing due to high infection rates and hospitalizations of unvaccinated people. 

If someone wants to be hyper-individualistic and refuse to consider their impacts on society - then their participation in that society should be restricted to minimize negative impacts. Unvaccinated people pose a greater risk to society. Thus, they shouldn't be allowed to participate in societal events in which they increase the risk: for example, unvaccinated people don't get to go to sporting events, concerts, travel on airplanes, buses, restaurants etc. If they will only consider their individual desires, then they can live life as an individual isolated away from society. 

Vaccination standards are not unique. There have been many vaccination requirements for decades. For example, one must get certain vaccines to travel to some countries because unvaccinated people would pose a stress on their health care system and risks to both the individual and society. If one refuses to get that vaccination, they are not be allowed to travel to that country and participate in that society. 

As well, there should be exemptions, for example people with immune disfunction. We could protect our community members that are at risk to the vaccine due to immune system problems. 10% of people would easily cover that. If 90% of us normies all got the vaccine, it would massively limit the spread of covid and the 10% of autoimmune vulnerable people are protected. 

Anti-vaxxers refusing to get vaccinated put society at risk, yet they want to take all the benefits from others getting vaccinated. That is a form of societal leeching. 

The individual perspective is also relevant, yet you are not balancing this with risk, harm and benefit at both individual and society level. If the vaccine posed significant harm to individual/society and the virus posed trivial harm to individual/society, we would place more emphasis on individual freedom. Yet this is not the case. Covid is much more harmful than the vaccine. 

 

[StarStruck]

I cam get my in June or something. They are vaccinating the old people. 

[SASAM]

Yeah I'm out of the whole 'social responsibility' angle.

I don't know how I can be convinced that I am somehow morally obligated to inject or ingest substances for the 'good of the whole'; especially as I was distrustful of the pharmaceutical industry, even before COVID.

Where is this 'good of the whole' attitude when it comes to every other social ill - why is there ridiculous wealth inequality and racial injustice? 

As far as I'm concerned, the reasonability of social obligation stops at wearing a mask.

I am more than happy to wear a mask if it makes fearful people comfortable in public; but not in risking my bodily integrity.

And any intelligent citizen should defend your fellow man's right to refuse; and be very wary of the slightest restrictions the fearful masses would wish to place on such an individual. 

I hope this ends well.

But from where I am standing, the ease with which people are being coaxed and convinced through fear and intimidation of an invisible virus shows me that most people have never been through a police interrogation - and would probably end up incriminating themselves. If you take this vaccine; you are incriminating yourself - and you have no one to blame but yourself. Moral and societal duty is from a former stage of Spiral Dynamics, the one in which young men were convinced to go to war and kill other men out a sense of nationalism. In 2021, I would hope that sentiment is long gone.  

The lockdowns, the fear, the isolation and alienation are more harmful than the 'virus', imo. The real virus is selfishness. Humanity is in trouble.

Leo, I am utterly surprised and dumbfounded that the same person who broke down the follies of modern-day Science (Scientism) so eloquently and even attempted to demonstrate that 'Brains Do Not Exist', holds this position on this vaccine.

If brains do not exist, how do viruses exist?

I hold the position that you are trolling; just feeling out your audience's level of consciousness. I hope I passed. 

[Forestluv]

39 minutes ago, SASAM said:

Yeah I'm out of the whole 'social responsibility' angle.

Ok. if someone refuses to be socially responsible, then their participation in society should be limited. People getting vaccinated are reducing the spread potential of the virus and anti-vaxxers are are allowing continued spread and new variants to arise. Anti-vaxxers shouldn't be allowed at social events like concerts, sporting events, airplanes, buses etc. These are all aspects of social systems. 

Society will soon get tired of anti-vaxxers filling up hospital beds, draining social systems and spreading variants. My local hospitals have hit capacity and are in triage due to unvaccinated covid patients. My work institution is looking at closing down. People will lose patience with anti-vaxxers. Especially when anti-vaxxers are spreading new variants that are resistant to the original vaccine. That is going to cause more social problems, drain systems and require responsible people to get another vaccination because of irresponsible anti-vaxxers. People aren't going to put up with that crap for long. 

If anti-vaxxers keep it up, there will be social restrictions on societal events in which only vaccinated people can attend. Vaccinated people are going to be pissed off with anti-vaxxers spreading new variants at concerts, sporting events, airline travel etc. 

39 minutes ago, SASAM said:

of an invisible virus 

more harmful than the 'virus',

Coronavirus denial is over the line for forum guidelines. You are walking in a grey area of covid-hoaxing. 

[SASAM]

I apologize, I do not want to intentionally break the forum guidelines. 

It is, however, a fact that the virus is invisible without sophisticated equipment. It is my opinion, however, that the lockdowns/social control, are more harmful than the virus was originally advertised as. 

I remember figures stating that there was a 99% survival rate. I also remember the drastic difference from the original reports and videos from Wuhan in 2019 (videos of people walking down streets and suddenly collapsing), that appear to have been forgotten by the public as that has not been the general experience with the virus.

I am happy to participate if people genuinely want to be socially responsible. To me, however, that is not happening, as there are more pressing and persistent issues that have been allowed to fester for decades and centuries, as I mentioned, and that I believe could be quickly resolved if we had the same cohesive effort that is being applied to this pandemic. The main driver in this pandemic appears to be fear.

Edited April 23, 2021 by SASAM

[SASAM]

29 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Society will soon get tired of anti-vaxxers filling up hospital beds, draining social systems and spreading variants. My local hospitals have hit capacity and are in triage due to unvaccinated covid patients. My work institution is looking at closing down. People will lose patience with anti-vaxxers. Especially when anti-vaxxers are spreading new variants that are resistant to the original vaccine. That is going to cause more social problems, drain systems and require responsible people to get another vaccination because of irresponsible anti-vaxxers. People aren't going to put up with that crap for long. 

 

I agree, antivaxxers should be consistent and not go to hospitals for COVID-related symptoms. 

Personally, I would only consult a physician/hospital for broken bones. Of course, I know I am on the fringe.

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, SASAM said:

I remember figures stating that there was a 99% survival rate.

I agree with you that lockdowns, restrictions, social distancing and masks have negative impacts on psychology. It's been clearly demonstrated that social isolation has a harmful impact on brain and endocrine systems. Social isolation alters gene expression, neural wiring and hormone levels - in particular the stress hormone cortisol. These are factors that should be acknowledged and considered in social policy decisions. 

Referencing a 99% survival rates is a common myopic trap that prevents understanding systems. Lethality is only one component of a larger system. Imagine a virus in which had a 100% survival rate, yet it infected 90% of a population, 70% of people need critical hospital care to survive and 30% of people end up paralyzed. In spite of it's 100% survival rate, this virus would have a devastating effect on society. 

One of the reasons the coronavirus is so destructive is because it has a relatively low lethality rate, it takes time to incubate and can spread through people with mild symptoms or asymptomatically. This increases the Ro of the virus. If a virus killed it's host 100% of the time within 1 hour, it wouldn't be that bad because it couldn't spread. It would kill a few hundred people and vanish. 

[Roy]

28 minutes ago, SASAM said:

It is, however, a fact that the virus is invisible without sophisticated equipment.

I see "invisible" virus being brought up a lot almost as a buzzword, as if people think they are being clever and appealing to some sort of scientific objectivity. But I still don't get if people are doing it without realizing they are being ironically disingenuous.................

Yea, it's obvious knowledge that most viruses and bacteria are invisible, because the human eye cannot see microscopic things. We all know though that just because you can't literally see the cold or the flu, you accept that it exists and you intuitively don't drink out of the same cup from someone who has it. Also, you call anyone who does a fool.

28 minutes ago, SASAM said:

as there are more pressing and persistent issues that have been allowed to fester for decades and centuries

Notice how you and most everyone else was going along in life mostly content and happy and not really doing anything about those issues, but now all of a sudden you are bringing up those things only to deflect from your own selfishness and responsibility when something serious like a pandemic that actually interferes with society and your life comes along.

You see if you actually cared about those things like you say you do, you would apply the same concern and willingness to take action to the thing that is currently present and heavily affecting the world.

Why is Covid any different or less important in your mind than to these "persistent issues that have been allowed to fester"?

You have noticed that despite all the lockdowns, rules, and "fear" that has been instilled that the virus has still done tremendous damage, and the damage would be exponentially more catastrophic if we didn't do anything, or stopped "fearing it" and did even less than has already been done right?

Edited April 23, 2021 by Roy

[BadHippie]

@Forestluv

You always talk about this asymptomatic spread. Can you show me a study or something? 

That goes completely against my own personal experience, which is king. 

 

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, SASAM said:

I agree, antivaxxers should be consistent and not go to hospitals for COVID-related symptoms. 

Yet this would also be toxic to a society. Anti-vaxxers are members of our community. I have neighbors that are anti-vaxxers. If they got covid and were dying from asphyxiation, it would be awful for paramedics to refuse helping her. That would fragment and traumatized communities. That's not the solution.

As well, anti-vaxxers would still spread variants. That is the greatest danger right now. New covid variants arising that are more harmful, contagious and resistant to the vaccine. That can cause serious problems. 

2 minutes ago, SASAM said:

I am happy to participate if people genuinely want to be socially responsible. To me, however, that is not happening, as there are more pressing and persistent issues that have been allowed to fester for decades and centuries, 

This doesn't make sense to me. Getting the vaccination is super easy. It's not like it takes years of time and lots of money investment. It literally took me 5 minutes in my local supermarket and it was free. Getting vaccinated is so trivial and doesn't pull one away from other issues. I can understand if someone resists the vaccine because they have an autoimmune condition, don't trust pharmaceuticals or is afraid of shots / vaccines, yet to say I won't spend 5 minutes to get a free vaccine because there are more pressing issues is the lamest excuse I've heard. 

 

22 minutes ago, SASAM said:

t I believe could be quickly resolved if we had the same cohesive effort that is being applied to this pandemic. 

It's too late to address the pandemic through a cohesive social effort. That ship has sailed. We had that opportunity and guess who fucked it up? . . . Yep, anti-vaxxing, anti-masking, anti-social distancing fanatics. 

New Zealand is an example of a society that worked together with masks, social distancing, restrictions and lockdowns. They were able to do it. And now they are all coming together to get vaccinated. Yet they are rare. Most countries have too many antis to pull it off. In my state, anti-maskers stormed our capital building with semi-automatic rifles and plotted to kidnap the state's governor.  

[Forestluv]

25 minutes ago, BadHippie said:

@Forestluv

You always talk about this asymptomatic spread. Can you show me a study or something? 

That goes completely against my own personal experience, which is king. 

 

I don't "always talk about asymptomatic spread". I don't mention it that often because I don't think it is a major factor.

When I refer to "asymptomatic spread", I am not saying it is on par with symptomatic spread. It is far lower. I'm saying the Ro for asymptomatic people is above 0 (yet far lower than symptomatic people).

As well, people that have mild symptoms often don't consider it covid symptoms. Someone might think "I'm a little achy today. It was a rough week". They consider themself asymptomatic, yet have mild symptoms.

Showing you a study indicating asymptomatic spread is greater than a Ro of zero would likely to do little good due to the lens you are wearing. You could easily find this information in under 2 min. online. (I just did a test run and found a peer-reviewed study via a google search in under 20 seconds). . . . My impression is that you are not genuinely asking to learn and expand - yet rather to dispute and defend a pre-conceived position. 

In this case, I wouldn't consider personal experience king. I'd consider it spiritual bypassing. For example, I just had a big meal. If I said "There isn't much starvation in the world today because of my personal experience", it would be a bypassing. 

[SASAM]

4 minutes ago, Roy said:

Why is Covid any different or less important in your mind than to these "persistent issues that have been allowed to fester"?

Very good question, however, I don't think I could answer you honestly without being seen as going against the guidelines along the lines of 'covid-hoaxing'.

So I'll just say my life experience and education has led me to a worldview that sees viruses on the same level of reality as brains.

And I see consciousness/direct experience as more real (as in causal to) these physical phenomena.

I also subscribe to the following as common-sense advice in regards to the medico-pharmaceutico-industrial complex: 

 

Again, I understand this is a touchy subject. Please censor my post if anything I'm saying crosses the line. I do not wish to violate any guidelines and truly appreciate being able to be a member of this forum. Peace.

[Forestluv]

@SASAM You aren't looking at nuances. Benefit and harm of medicine is context-dependent. There are situations in which western medicine in unhelpful / harmful and situations in which western medicine is best. If someone is having a heart attack, it's best to be in a western hospital bed ASAP. One does not want to be having a heart attack and be fed herbs from a naturopath or hearing chants from a Shaman. In this situation, a western cardiologist surgeon who can clear the blockage and put in a stint is best. 

Yet there are other situations when it's better for one's wellness to start Yoga with a community, do breathwork, get therapy, start exercising, improve diet etc. (As Allan Greenberg suggests).

Grouping all of western medicine as "bad" is hyper-simplistic. 

As well, the quote you gave was a criticism that western medicine focuses on treating symptoms, yet not cure. This is a fair criticism. Yet the vaccine is exactly what Allan Greenberg is advocating for. Vaccine development does not focus on treating symptoms - it focuses on the cure (preventing covid). 

[Roy]

4 minutes ago, SASAM said:

So I'll just say my life experience and education has led me to a worldview that sees viruses on the same level of reality as brains.

And I see consciousness/direct experience as more real (as in causal to) these physical phenomena.

I appreciate you being tactful, and I also largely agree with the text in the image you posted.

I just want to say be careful not to use "consciousness/first person/direct experience" as a way to bypass other parts of reality.

Consider going back, contemplating, and relearning some things some more.

Remember spiritual work and the like is done in addition to a well rounded and foundational scientific perspective. Don't put the cart ahead of the horse.

It's important to be humble and look for all the ways you could be playing tricks on yourself.

Not trying to gaslight you, I genuinely want the best for you.

[BadHippie]

@Forestluv

Can you post the study at least? I went through a lot of "peer-reviewed" studies, which doesn´t mean the science is good. You make another assumption that I am not being interested in expanding my knowledge. I am actually.

Sadly this forum is the complete opposite of what I expected. Most of what I see here are dogmatic views, which I can put into different perspectives. Most people here seem to think that there is only one legit perspective when it comes to COVID, which is really not doing this forum any good.

[SASAM]

8 minutes ago, Roy said:

I appreciate you being tactful, and I also largely agree with the text in the image you posted.

I just want to say be careful not to use "consciousness/first person/direct experience" as a way to bypass other parts of reality.

Consider going back, contemplating, and relearning some things some more.

Remember spiritual work and the like is done in addition to a well rounded and foundational scientific perspective. Don't put the cart ahead of the horse.

It's important to be humble and look for all the ways you could be playing tricks on yourself.

Not trying to gaslight you, I genuinely want the best for you.

Thank you for you tact and concern. I genuinely want what is best for you as well, sir.

 

10 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

@SASAM You aren't looking at nuances. Allopathic medicine is context-dependent. There are situations in which western medicine in unhelpful or harmful and situations in which western medicine is best. If someone is having a heart attack, it's best to be in a western hospital bed ASAP. One does not want to be having a heart attack and be fed herbs from a naturopath or hearing chants from a Shaman. In this situation, a western cardiologist surgeon who can clear the blockage and put in a stint is best. 

Yet there are other situations when it's better for one's wellness to start Yoga with a community, do breathwork, get therapy, start exercising, improve diet etc. 

Grouping all of western medicine as "bad" is hyper-simplistic. 

Absolutely. If you've been following the majority with regard to diet and medicine, and have not spent years trying to find and follow a holistic, natural lifestyle, I think it would only make sense for you to be consistent and take the vaccine.

This same World Health Organization came out with the (to me, world-shattering) news that hot dogs and bacon are to be classified as Class 1 Carcinogens back in 2015; the same cancer-causing group as cigarettes and alcohol. However, society did not react by slapping CANCER warning stickers on all hot dog and bacon packages at your grocery store, as would be logically and socially-ethically consistent. Especially as heart disease and cancer are the top causes of death in these societies. No, we implicitly decided that an individual's right to eat hot dogs and bacon without being reminded that they are cancer causing superseded the massive (although distant) burden on our health care system. 

I know that a communicable virus is not the same as self-caused disease from over-eating. But my general malaise with virtue signaling in society probably started there.

Edited April 23, 2021 by SASAM

[Viddiben]

I got Astrazeneca, then some are banning it, because of really few cases of blood clot! Very few cases though, we'll see if I get the second dose.