Are animals enlightened?

[Breakingthewall]

On 17/4/2021 at 11:21 AM, Carl-Richard said:

Yes, they have less psychological suffering, more peace, presence, less mental anguish, but they are not enlightened. As far as we know, they don't have awakenings, their state doesn't change, and there is no spiritual progression. Maybe this will be studied in the future and we'll have maps for animal spirituality as well. However, our current maps of enlightenment are limited to humans, and I haven't heard of anyone who was born enlightened.

Even if it was technically possible to be born enlightened, it would just be too extremely rare to matter to anyone. There are always exceptions to a rule, but the utility of the rule isn't defined by its exceptions. I think the progression component is a pretty useful way of defining enlightenment. The very reason why it's such a hot issue in the first place is because it's a sought-after thing that very few people have accomplished. In that sense, enlightenment isn't as much of a quality as an activity.

However, you can also make qualitative definitions of enlightenment that would still exclude animals, namely the idea that it's synonymous with what I like to call "non-dual baseline awareness", where "non-dual baseline" is defined by a lack of self-referential thoughts ~95% of the time (5% attributable to hypoglycemia). Now, the crucial point is that what I just mentioned only applies to humans. I will explain why that is:

Firstly, the concept of "baseline" implies that the potential for self-referential thoughts is always there (the underlying mental faculties never disappeared), and sometimes they may even reappear from time to time. Secondly, many self-proclaimed enlightened humans (who I believe to fall under the aforementioned criteria) still claim to be able to deploy thought as a means to an end ("non-self-referential thought").

In other words, enlightenment in this case would be "non-dual baseline awareness" + "the ability to think in order to plan or solve problems". So for an animal to be enlightened in this case, they would need to 1. have no self-referential thoughts and 2. have an ability to think (which isn't so clear). If you instead say that they're just innately unable to form any thoughts at all, that would distinguish them from all other "formally recognized" enlightened beings.

Then you have special cases where some enlightened people claim to have lost all forms of thought all together. Now, does that make them an animal? Well, even if they lack the subjective experience of solving problems using mental representations (through visual imagery or internalized verbal reasoning), they still display the same abilities as someone who does that. In other words, they can still pass as someone who is able to think to solve problems. Then the definition becomes more or less tautological in respect to the question: no self-referential thoughts + display of human behavior, i.e. only humans can be enlightened 

In summary, it's most useful in my opinion to define enlightenment or an enlightened being as "a selfless, thinking being" (or atleast one that displays the behavior of such a being), the qualities of which is partially accessible on a continuum facilitated by spiritual practice, eventually reaching a maximum and stabilizing around a baseline.

I also want to make it clear that I've been mostly referring to the most basic type of enlightenment in various maps ("600s" — Ramaji; "Valley of unity" — Sufism; "the Absolute within the Relative" — Five Ranks of Tozan; "Sixth Zen Bull" — 10 Zen Ox herding pictures; "4th Stage" — Patanjali' Yoga Sutras; "4th stage" (Sattvapati) — Advaita Vedanta. https://www.realizedbygrace.org/levels-of-consciousness?lightbox=dataItem-jlvwww23. However, the no-thought state mentioned in the 6th paragraph is usually considered a much later stage depending on the map.

Good answer and really interesting link, thanks for sharing

[allislove]

12 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Yes I can 

Where is 'I' located that found a separation, in the head? ?

[Someone here]

@allislove were you asking about separation between humans and animals? 

[Blackhawk]

We don't know if humans are enlightened, let alone if animals are.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Carl-Richard]

33 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

We don't know if humans are enlightened, let alone if animals are.

What do you mean? Is this the start of yet another solipsism thread? What's next — veganism as we're on the topic of animals? 

"Buckle up and strap in for our latest rendition of the eco-fascist/solipsist-nihilist/neo-spiritualist crossover! All you need is a stable internet service and some ill-defined sparetime! This is an experience you will not regret having for the 5th time this week!" 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[allislove]

@Someone here any kind of separation ?

[Someone here]

@allislove well there is apparent separation.. Nonduality is hidden within duality. I'm speaking from relative perspective. 

[allislove]

@Someone here

Roughly speaking, yes. The better pointer would be "not two", i.e. nonduality is duality and vice versa.

It means zero separation, only one creator so to speak. So, a cat and your body are inside this creator... and this creator is actual you. Currently, there is focusing on thinking that you are your descriptions (e.g. 'I am a man', 'I was born', etc). Self realization reveals that you are not your descriptions, you are the whole experience that allows for descriptions to exist inside you.

[Zeroguy]

Yes that creator is me. Who else??

[Javfly33]

13 minutes ago, Kalo said:

So you created the universe, the sun etc? Lol

To think that God is only the formed manifested reality and nothing more, is to deny God.

It's time to surrender to the fact that you are God, there isn't any Gods. Like plural. Only singular. 

[allislove]

34 minutes ago, Kalo said:

So you created the universe, the sun etc? Lol

Not even that. You are the whole universe, the sun, everything, creation itself.

22 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

It's time to surrender to the fact that you are God, there isn't any Gods. Like plural. Only singular. 

Love the vibe bro.

[allislove]

8 minutes ago, Kalo said:

Nah bro, I'm pretty sure I'm just a guy limited to my body like all of us. I was born and I will die, just like all of us.

I would say like that: you are a guy, but not only ? You have more 'power' than you may think. You can live at peace, you can create what you truly want, you can share loving attention with everyone.

Have you read amazing post from Nahm, called "The Path, Living & The Dream Board"? A lot of cool pointers on that.

Godspeed ?

[Zeroguy]

2 minutes ago, allislove said:

I would say like that: you are the guy, but not only ? You have more 'power' that you may think. You can live at peace, you can create what you truly want, you can share loving attention with everyone.

Have you read amazing post from Nahm, called "The Path, Living & The Dream Board"? A lot of cool pointers on that.

Godspeed ?

Ameno, Ameno. 

Lambo baby can't wait. There never was floating bald head in space. Can it be better. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Zeroguy

[The0Self]

6 hours ago, neutralempty said:

@m0hsen animals have ego

No. Only the human expresses the ego/self-consciousness/judger. On this planet, anyway.

[Breakingthewall]

21 hours ago, Kalo said:

Nah bro, I'm pretty sure I'm just a guy limited to my body like all of us. I was born and I will die, just like all of us. 

I'm happy I'm not the sun, looks pretty warm there bro.

There is only you playing a game with yourself. Only, alone, the being imploding on itself. you are trapped, like me, and the game tries to free yourself completely. if you don't see it, you can't even start playing

[Nahm]

Maybe forget animals... perhaps the question is why can’t it be determined wether anything of perception is enlightened, said the flashlight. 

[Breakingthewall]

the animals are not enlightened. They are god being a bird, pure being being, éxtasis, but they do not know that they are god, like 1-year-old children, they simply are. They are close to God insofar as they are pure, but it is necessary to eat the apple of the tree and be expelled from Eden to be able to see.

[Breakingthewall]

15 minutes ago, Kalo said:

I enjoy being trapped in the game bro. A day will come when we all will die the Ultimate death and return to the Source.

For now, playing is all we can do

Play, have fun. Pray, remember your God. Contemplate, remember your death. Remember your return to God.

Yeah yeah agree, i always thought like you, but now I think the only thing I have to do is undo the enigma, free myself, everything else is child's play

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Become free like the birds. 

 

nice wish. nothing less than that is enough

[Someone here]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

they simply are. 

That's enlightenment