Are animals enlightened?

[TheSelf]

@Someone here I can also see cat's enjoy being in a really peaceful meditative state when they're full in stomach (you can also see that stillness within their actions too) but is this same as enlightenment?

What's your definition of enlightenment btw?

Is enlightenment that inherent peace within yourself and abiding in it?

Or a feeling of oneness with everything around you?

You can sit and enjoy the peace withing yourself but that's not same as that non-dual state of consciousness.

Edited April 17, 2021 by m0hsen

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, Someone here said:

They suffer less psychological suffering.. They have more peace and surrender to the present moment.. They have less mental anguish.. Etc all these are enlightened characteristics.. They don't necessarily need to be earned. They are just born with it. I would say they are more in tune and touch with their own being then us humans and live less in concepts and more in the real world. That makes them more naturally "enlightened" than us. 

Yes, they have less psychological suffering, more peace, presence, less mental anguish, but they are not enlightened. As far as we know, they don't have awakenings, their state doesn't change, and there is no spiritual progression. Maybe this will be studied in the future and we'll have maps for animal spirituality as well. However, our current maps of enlightenment are limited to humans, and I haven't heard of anyone who was born enlightened.

Even if it was technically possible to be born enlightened, it would just be too extremely rare to matter to anyone. There are always exceptions to a rule, but the utility of the rule isn't defined by its exceptions. I think the progression component is a pretty useful way of defining enlightenment. The very reason why it's such a hot issue in the first place is because it's a sought-after thing that very few people have accomplished. In that sense, enlightenment isn't as much of a quality as an activity.

However, you can also make qualitative definitions of enlightenment that would still exclude animals, namely the idea that it's synonymous with what I like to call "non-dual baseline awareness", where "non-dual baseline" is defined by a lack of self-referential thoughts ~95% of the time (5% attributable to hypoglycemia). Now, the crucial point is that what I just mentioned only applies to humans. I will explain why that is:

Firstly, the concept of "baseline" implies that the potential for self-referential thoughts is always there (the underlying mental faculties never disappeared), and sometimes they may even reappear from time to time. Secondly, many self-proclaimed enlightened humans (who I believe to fall under the aforementioned criteria) still claim to be able to deploy thought as a means to an end ("non-self-referential thought").

In other words, enlightenment in this case would be "non-dual baseline awareness" + "the ability to think in order to plan or solve problems". So for an animal to be enlightened in this case, they would need to 1. have no self-referential thoughts and 2. have an ability to think (which isn't so clear). If you instead say that they're just innately unable to form any thoughts at all, that would distinguish them from all other "formally recognized" enlightened beings.

Then you have special cases where some enlightened people claim to have lost all forms of thought all together. Now, does that make them an animal? Well, even if they lack the subjective experience of solving problems using mental representations (through visual imagery or internalized verbal reasoning), they still display the same abilities as someone who does that. In other words, they can still pass as someone who is able to think to solve problems. Then the definition becomes more or less tautological in respect to the question: no self-referential thoughts + display of human behavior, i.e. only humans can be enlightened 

In summary, it's most useful in my opinion to define enlightenment or an enlightened being as "a selfless, thinking being" (or atleast one that displays the behavior of such a being), the qualities of which is partially accessible on a continuum facilitated by spiritual practice, eventually reaching a maximum and stabilizing around a baseline.

I also want to make it clear that I've been mostly referring to the most basic type of enlightenment in various maps ("600s" — Ramaji; "Valley of unity" — Sufism; "the Absolute within the Relative" — Five Ranks of Tozan; "Sixth Zen Bull" — 10 Zen Ox herding pictures; "4th Stage" — Patanjali' Yoga Sutras; "4th stage" (Sattvapati) — Advaita Vedanta. https://www.realizedbygrace.org/levels-of-consciousness?lightbox=dataItem-jlvwww23. However, the no-thought state mentioned in the 6th paragraph is usually considered a much later stage depending on the map.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Nahm]

16 hours ago, Someone here said:

Considering their child-like innocent state.. They live completely and comfortably in the present moment and they act according to their instincts directly without much conceptual bullshit and belief systems etc. They seem to not indulge in unnecessary thinking about the past and the future. Cats for example are so zen if you ever saw one. 

What’s a ‘they’? 

[Someone here]

7 hours ago, m0hsen said:

What's your definition of enlightenment btw?

Is enlightenment that inherent peace within yourself and abiding in it?

Or a feeling of oneness with everything around you?

 

In the context of humans.. t's not something you gain.... it's a falling away of who you thought you were  and the realization of true self. Which by the way feels like nothing and everything at the same time kind of hard to explain. Judgment becomes pointless because you know they are just conditioned thought patterns. You look at things as they are. The saying "it is what it is" Rings true with enlightenment. To me Enlightenment is simply the Truth realized in all aspects of existence. It's not necessarily that your ego dissolves or goes anywhere ...you can just choose not to listen to it.. Etc all That is present to some extent naturally in animals. 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Someone here

[Someone here]

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

What’s a ‘they’? 

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/they

[mandyjw]

Light enlightens things. No light, no appearance of things, no separate things. So if you see something that seemingly reflects light back to you, it's all the same light. He who smelt it dealt it. Call it your light if you want, you're the light.

Light of course, is neither a movement (wave) or a thing (particle) and for us to call it one or the other, we the observer, decide which it is. 

Are you, the observer, a movement, a verb, something you are doing, or are you also a solid thing? If you were a solid thing, then how could you observe at all? 

Edited April 17, 2021 by mandyjw

[Nahm]

@Someone here

Whatcha here for my man? 

[Someone here]

Just now, Nahm said:

@Someone here

Whatcha here for my man? 

None of your business. 

[Someone here]

@mandyjw wave or particle? Observer? What does that to do with OP? 

[mandyjw]

“What you seek is seeking you.” Rumi

[mandyjw]

1 minute ago, Someone here said:

@mandyjw wave or particle? Observer? What does that to do with OP? 

Your questioning the outside observation and judgement of an animal being enlightened or not, and a scientist questioning whether light is a wave or a particle so he can know what it is and finding that it entirely depends on the observer, because the "thing" and the awareness "of the thing" are not ever separate, well, it struck me as the same thing. 

 

[Nahm]

10 minutes ago, Someone here said:

None of your business. 

Sooooo.... make a post... to be heard... not to inspect, dispel beliefs, misunderstanding, etc.  

Ok. ?? 

Forum will be on par with Reddit soon. 

[mandyjw]

[Someone here]

@Nahm stop it. 

[Nahm]

@Someone here

[allislove]

23 hours ago, Someone here said:

Considering their child-like innocent state.. They live completely and comfortably in the present moment and they act according to their instincts directly without much conceptual bullshit and belief systems etc. They seem to not indulge in unnecessary thinking about the past and the future. Cats for example are so zen if you ever saw one. 

Can you find a separate border between 'you' and 'they'? Or is it just a thought? Inspect direct experience. ?

All the anxiety that was mentioned in the previous posts due to the belief in separated you. You are the whole experience.

[Zeroguy]

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

Sooooo.... make a post... to be heard... not to inspect, dispel beliefs, misunderstanding, etc.  

Ok. ?? 

Forum will be on par with Reddit soon. 

You haven't saw relationships and dating section but politics one scares me the most. 

[Zeroguy]

Lets help with clear transparent balls trending cause I guess. 

Love. 

[Moksha]

Enlightenment is just another state of Consciousness. Everything, from rocks to animals to aliens, is Consciousness. We are a sleeping titan with moments of lucidity, but the moments themselves, of awakening to ourselves, are also part of the dream. How can moments actually exist, when time is an illusion? Ultimately, the dream, regardless of what form it takes, is nothing more than imagination, within the supreme reality of us. We are the abode of the cosmos. The cosmos is our dream.

Sound insane? Mission accomplished 

[Someone here]

15 hours ago, allislove said:

Can you find a separate border between 'you' and 'they'? Or is it just a thought? Inspect direct experience

Yes I can