High value guy is mostly made, high value girl is mostly born

[billiesimon]

4 hours ago, intotheblack said:

@soos_mite_ah @Preety_India
It’s all very stage red/orange dating on this forum. I don’t see the more spiritual men on the forum commenting in this section.  Would be nice if they did though so there would be more mature responses. 

guys find the older pickup videos on YouTube and it is leading them here until this day. I still see people talking about those types of video, or people recommending them. Or maybe they found the forum through a different video but then found the pickup community here and got attracted to it....And yeah, Leo also interacts with them on the forum and feeds into those world views so they flock to him and take everything that he says as gospel...maybe because he himself still somewhat believes in those views I don’t know.  But he also sends mixed messages by promoting pickup but also promoting consciousness in the other sections of the forum.  Which makes me think Leo is still stage orange with dating. 
 

Well yes, that's correct in my opinion.

But it's also important to underline that the general male audience of this community is spiritual and advanced.
If this forum had a female pickup section it would have a lot of female selfish content as well. Dating and sexuality are survival topics. It's always necessary to remember it.... judging actualized.org from the dating section is ridiculous. Just like judging Teal Swan's work only from her alien-obsessed fans.

That's it. I will not continue the discussion, since this section of the forum is actually very low awareness  You can tell by the aggressiveness here 

[intotheblack]

16 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

judging actualized.org from the dating section is ridiculous.

Yeah which is why I said specifically the dating section, I wasn’t talking about actualized .org as a whole.  
But yes also that fact that its very male dominated also adds to it. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by intotheblack

[intotheblack]

4 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

Yeah. I think men tend to underestimate women are also quite visual. Young women especially, tend to value looks and age. Justin Bieber is the guy who got them all crazy, not an old grim looking chap with a Ferrari. 

Anyway, my ideal rich guy wouldn't flaunt his wealth and play with this status like that. Old money hides its wealth, drive cars like Volvo and are dreading to attract females because of their cash when it comes to find a suitable wife. 

Yep. Pretty much every girl I’ve known, whenever someone mentions they are dating someone new, the first question is always ‘show me a picture of him’ ‘what does he look like?’   I think young girls especially care about looks.  It’s usually when they get a bit older they stop caring as much about it... unless of course the car or the money is more important to them..but in general they care about what their friends or other people think about how attractive the guy they are dating is. 

lol one thing I have never been attracted to was a man flaunting a car or money! It never resonated with me.

[billiesimon]

2 hours ago, intotheblack said:

Yeah which is why I said specifically the dating section, I wasn’t talking about actualized .org as a whole.  
But yes also that fact that its very male dominated also adds to it. 

Yeah 

[Emerald]

10 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

You'd think that a forum that is based on consciousness and self development would attract more high quality guys who are interested in those things. Yet there are things on this forum that I have read that aren't things that I encounter guys irl preach. In some ways, it's like the average guy has more sense than the average guy on this forum.

I sometimes wonder why there are so many insecure men on this forum? But at the same time you don't see as many insecure women.  It's a genuine question I have from my observations.

A website based on self-improvement will always have the Shadow of insecurity because many/most people who get into the path of self-development are trying to compensate for a sense of lack and feelings of low self-esteem. 

The outward facade here is that it's a place for those interested in higher consciousness who are on a higher wavelength. But it's really more like a large group of people who feel like they need to be that to be enough. 

[Consept]

1 hour ago, intotheblack said:

Yep. Pretty much every girl I’ve known, whenever someone mentions they are dating someone new, the first question is always ‘show me a picture of him’ ‘what does he look like?’   I think young girls especially care about looks.  It’s usually when they get a bit older they stop caring as much about it... unless of course the car or the money is more important to them..but in general they care about what their friends or other people think about how attractive the guy they are dating is. 

lol one thing I have never been attracted to was a man flaunting a car or money! It never resonated with me.

I dont think anyone is saying looks arent a factor for women, i think what theyre saying is looks are more important for men in terms of attraction. Women usually have a longer list of criteria which usually includes physical appearance, whereas for men some can make the selection purely on looks and maybe more conscious or mature men want looks but also have more criteria which theyll need in addition to looks. This of course is for long term relationships, for casual stuff the criteria is obviously much lower on both sides. 

[Lyubov]

12 hours ago, modmyth said:

IMO the rawest deal of all is being a conventionally unattractive woman, or even plain. 

is it? seems like there are plenty of guys who don't have a "high sexual value" on the marketplace so to speak that are after those women. 

it's my personal bias and this conversation is gonna go back and forth due to the gender war dynamic but I see being an incredibly overweight depressed incel born in a country with a higher male population the worst. At that point you statistically have a chance of simply not even having a woman available unless you move or greatly develop yourself. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Lyubov

[Etherial Cat]

3 hours ago, intotheblack said:

Yep. Pretty much every girl I’ve known, whenever someone mentions they are dating someone new, the first question is always ‘show me a picture of him’ ‘what does he look like?’   I think young girls especially care about looks.  It’s usually when they get a bit older they stop caring as much about it... unless of course the car or the money is more important to them..but in general they care about what their friends or other people think about how attractive the guy they are dating is. 

lol one thing I have never been attracted to was a man flaunting a car or money! It never resonated with me.

Yes. I also remember very well how girls going for unattractive chap with money were stigmatized as whoring themselves and going for a lame option.

People will gossip a lot and judge you harshly, hence the desire to be conform and get someone traditional attractive. So the usual stage Orange female's ideal case is a guy who's got it all "capital wise". If you look at movies like Twilight or 50 shades of Grey, the romantic interest is a hot dude with status and money, and I think it portrays well stage Blue/Orange or Orange.

Also, you can date someone for its money while not being attracted to him/her, so let's not forget about that.  A lot of women will compromise on looks (and sexual attraction) for security, but the truth is that both genders are attracted to good looks. Good looks (or something that works for you) is the default standard for sexual attraction. 

But then, the thing is that good looks is not enough when there is no real resonance and connection. A romantic interest is at the intersection between sexual interest and a deep resonance.

In my case, I can compromise fairly on looks if the resonance is there, because the resonance is rarer than good looks and I think this matters a lot. Also, I am quite generous with finding people attractive, and i'm well aware that the physical fades.

Usually, the more I like someone, the more I am able to find them good looking.  The contrary can also happen if someone is rather good looking, but behaves like an ass.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Etherial Cat

[soos_mite_ah]

10 hours ago, intotheblack said:

@soos_mite_ah @Preety_India
It’s all very stage red/orange dating on this forum. I don’t see the more spiritual men on the forum commenting in this section.  Would be nice if they did though so there would be more mature responses. 

I feel that the dating section brings out the worst in a lot of people. And a lot of the more conscious people try to avoid this section because of that and instead rather focus on their development. 

Personally, I try to avoid this section and mind my own business in my journal. But I still get tempted. It's something I'm working on because a lot of what's being said in this section isn't affecting me in a healthy way. 

10 hours ago, intotheblack said:

And yeah, Leo also interacts with them on the forum and feeds into those world views so they flock to him and take everything that he says as gospel...maybe because he himself still somewhat believes in those views I don’t know.  But he also sends mixed messages by promoting pickup but also promoting consciousness in the other sections of the forum.  Which makes me think Leo is still stage orange with dating. 

I agree with you and @Preety_India on this. I get that sometimes Leo tries to say things like "it's all survival" as a way to direct both parties to a more meta perspective, but imo, there is a time and place for that because then some people take that and further entrench themselves in their ideology. I've seen another thread that went in this direction and I get that all of his teachings can't be idiot proof and it's up to us to not misconstrue the teachings but at the same time he needs to meet people where they're at and direct them towards the next step, not skip a bunch of steps. It's like teaching a second grader calculus and expecting that kid to not get even more confused.  

10 hours ago, intotheblack said:

when I tell my boyfriend some of the stuff that people say on this sub-section he’s like ‘wtf isn’t this supposed to be a self development forum?!’ 
I just feel like most of the guys on this dating forum have been living under a rock and have no idea what it’s like in real life, so they just sit and theorize about everything, when in reality all that theory and studying just doesn’t go as planned! Because you can’t plan genuine attraction.  All these other things are manipulation to get sex. I’ve led a very social life since being a teen and all through my 20s (now I’m a hermit ?) and the best relationships happen when there is no planning.  Simply going out and having a social life and meeting people spontaneously and forming various connections, no amount of planning will account for that, but you have to get out there and live life! 

Totally agree. A lot of this theorizing also leads to a form of victim mentality like "oh I guess I'm too much of a nice guy" or "I guess my jaw isn't square enough and I'm too short." Those are actual insecurities don't get me wrong but dealing with them by manipulating people instead of addressing their issues with self love leads to disaster. 

Granted I haven't had much of a social life from like 2018 to now (so like 3.5 years) for various reasons from me working on myself to getting trapped in the house with my parents because of a pandemic, but my view didn't get nearly as distorted. I don't know how much more of your life you would have to spend under a rock to end up with this kind of thinking. 

8 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

I think the forum has a rather good concentration of quality guys. But when it comes to the dating section, it's likely that they wouldn't need it much or they look at it as the "cesspool" section. Unlike females, they don't see the point in trying to correct misconceptions about the woman experience because there isn't much at stake for them and they aren't in it. I personally post here a lot because I'm trying to push back some toxic narratives.

I also believe that when a post by a quality man is made, it gets little attention. What causes thread to explode or a post to get a lot of answers is when a polarized perspective occurs. So this happens more with more controversial perspectives than with reasonable ones. This can create a particularly unfavorable optic regarding the general level of consciousness regarding relationship in this forum.

Last but not least, this forum, as well as Leo's teaching is quite wired towards masculine energy in general. This dating section which deals most with the "dance" of the two duality "pays the price for it". 

Yeah that makes sense. Sometimes I want to avoid this section entirely but at the same time I do have a motivation to correct misconceptions as well because of the implications they can have. 

8 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

Yeah. I think men tend to underestimate women are also quite visual. Young women especially, tend to value looks and age. Justin Bieber is the guy who got them all crazy, not an old grim looking chap with a Ferrari. 

Women are visual and we care about looks as much as men do but the thing is that we don't write off a man's entire value based on looks and dehumanize them in that way. Also with Bieber, a lot of people recently (like in the past couple years) have been becoming less attracted to him because he devolved in the way he carries himself (probably the drugs tbh). I remember one time I got on twitter and people were dragging him and saying that he was cute before and now he looks like the creepy guy you see in a trailer park.  

2017 vs 2020

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

A website based on self-improvement will always have the Shadow of insecurity because many/most people who get into the path of self-development are trying to compensate for a sense of lack and feelings of low self-esteem. 

The outward facade here is that it's a place for those interested in higher consciousness who are on a higher wavelength. But it's really more like a large group of people who feel like they need to be that to be enough. 

That makes sense. I caught myself falling into the same trap. Guess it manifests differently in different people and can come out in more blatant ways. 

1 minute ago, Etherial Cat said:

Yes. I also remember very well how girls going for unattractive chap with money were stigmatized as whoring themselves and going for a lame option.

People will gossip a lot and judge you harshly, hence the desire to be conform and get someone traditional attractive. So the usual stage Orange female's ideal case is a guy who's got it all "capital wise".If you look at movies like Twilight or 50 shades of Grey, the romantic interest is a hot dude with status and money.

I relate to this. I personally have a type that a lot of women/ society would consider ugly and I catch myself wanting to justify it even though my friends don't really care. It's a bad feeling when you show your friends a picture of a guy you like and they just reply with "well..... as long as you're happy I guess" and then you're tempted to be like "ok that's just a bad picture of him, I promise he looks better in person." lmao. 

I think when you're young, man or woman, you're fed with a certain ideal of attractiveness because you have limited exposure but as you get older and see what kind of guys are out there, you own personal palette starts forming. That's not to say attraction isn't still affected by society's ideals but it's like you develop your individual tastes as well. That's why imo a lot of incelly guys tend to focus on whether a girl is a ten by like modeling standards instead of trying to figure out what they like, having a broad diverse view of beauty, and gain appreciation for something outside of society's ideal. It's due to their own lack of exposure. 

[Emerald]

9 hours ago, universe said:

That is the beauty of this place. No one hides behind masks and communication is quite direct (also Leos's videos on those topics). I don't remember where I heard that before but basically, tell a group of men that there is a woman in a luxury sports car just arriving in front of her big house to park. What would be the first question the men would ask? "And what does she look like?". Tell the same to a group of woman but instead there is now a man arriving in his Ferrari. Heading into his villa. What would the woman ask? "And what does he do? Who is he?".

Of course not everyone will ask the same question but masculine and feminine are different. And both are beautiful and magical in their own way.

The misunderstanding happens because we are biased in our respective polarity. That is why some woman have a hard time understanding that it's not just intelligence and comfort but even more appearence and sex that are so important to man. And some man have a hard time to understand that it's not just looks and status that count but even more confidence and connection that are important to woman as a baseline.

And I agree with you and @soos_mite_ah , there are thousands of other factors for both man and woman to improve on, in order to find their dream partner if they whish. It's not that all woman and man are fixated on these one two three for five qualities and everyone who isn't born with them is out of luck. If you don't attract the right partners it is 100% in your power to change that. That also means you have no one else to blame other than yourself if it doesn't work out.

I don't really think what you're saying is true in terms of no one hiding behind masks. I tend to think this populace here is a bit defensive in general and really trying to become something else than what they are.

But what I was saying is that there are a myriad of masculine instincts beyond just the desire to have sex with attractive women. But you would think otherwise on this forum, as many men boil their masculinity down to that quite often. And this reflects an underdeveloped orientation to masculinity.

Consider that human instincts exist for a very important reason... survival in the form of self-preservation and species preservation. All of our instincts are geared towards that.

The masculine instinct to sew the seed widely with many fertile women is a strong drive for that reason.

But consider also, that a pre-birth-control society based on men ONLY owning that part of their masculinity. And that becomes a society that is piss poor in terms of species preservation (and therefore self-preservation) because you have men impregnating lots of women... meaning fathering lots of children that he has no time/ability to father. So, there are other pro-social instincts that come in and temper this instinct, otherwise society doesn't function.

In present day, that instinct is still designed to be tempered by those other instincts. The difference now is that we have birth control. And men are having a hard time developing a connection to those other instincts because there is not as much of an impetus to temper the beauty-seeking drive. 

So, when a man only owns the beauty-seeking drive of his masculine instinct without regard to his other instincts like his instincts towards pair bonding, fatherhood, commitment, community building, etc. this can lead to a society that's out of alignment and a populace of men who are out of alignment with the full depth and breadth of their masculinity... having only a one-note connection to their masculinity.

And it also leads to men losing the respect of women who can't be satisfied when a man is fixated upon just one of his masculine drives. And this particular masculine drive is impersonal, so it orients to women more as objects than as people just as a natural outcome of that drive. So, it's both triggering and unsatisfying at once from the female perspective when this drive is not integrated and channeled with the other drives that are more personal.  

[WaveInTheOcean]

59 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I don't really think what you're saying is true in terms of no one hiding behind masks. I tend to think this populace here is a bit defensive in general and really trying to become something else than what they are.

But what I was saying is that there are a myriad of masculine instincts beyond just the desire to have sex with attractive women. But you would think otherwise on this forum, as many men boil their masculinity down to that quite often. And this reflects an underdeveloped orientation to masculinity.

Consider that human instincts exist for a very important reason... survival in the form of self-preservation and species preservation. All of our instincts are geared towards that.

The masculine instinct to sew the seed widely with many fertile women is a strong drive for that reason.

But consider also, that a pre-birth-control society based on men ONLY owning that part of their masculinity. And that becomes a society that is piss poor in terms of species preservation (and therefore self-preservation) because you have men impregnating lots of women... meaning fathering lots of children that he has no time/ability to father. So, there are other pro-social instincts that come in and temper this instinct, otherwise society doesn't function.

In present day, that instinct is still designed to be tempered by those other instincts. The difference now is that we have birth control. And men are having a hard time developing a connection to those other instincts because there is not as much of an impetus to temper the beauty-seeking drive. 

So, when a man only owns the beauty-seeking drive of his masculine instinct without regard to his other instincts like his instincts towards pair bonding, fatherhood, commitment, community building, etc. this can lead to a society that's out of alignment and a populace of men who are out of alignment with the full depth and breadth of their masculinity... having only a one-note connection to their masculinity.

And it also leads to men losing the respect of women who can't be satisfied when a man is fixated upon just one of his masculine drives. And this particular masculine drive is impersonal, so it orients to women more as objects than as people just as a natural outcome of that drive. So, it's both triggering and unsatisfying at once from the female perspective when this drive is not integrated and channeled with the other drives that are more personal.  

?? You're one of the wisest around on this forum, thank you for taking your time to share your knowledge and insights.

[Etherial Cat]

36 minutes ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

?? You're one of the wisest around on this forum, thank you for taking your time to share your knowledge and insights.

?

Meeting Emerald on this forum has opened a lot of doors in my psyche.

I'm impressed with this woman. 

[Cireeric]

15 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

You'd think that a forum that is based on consciousness and self development would attract more high quality guys who are interested in those things. Yet there are things on this forum that I have read that aren't things that I encounter guys irl preach. In some ways, it's like the average guy has more sense than the average guy on this forum.

I sometimes wonder why there are so many insecure men on this forum? But at the same time you don't see as many insecure women.  It's a genuine question I have from my observations.

Dont forget that in this forum, the man express themselves far more freely and are more likely to express their true agendas or feelings about things, whereas when you as a woman encounter man in person, they will signal higher virtues and try to hide their vulnerabilitys.

[Preety_India]

8 hours ago, billiesimon said:

I beg to differ  Leo actually tends to attract a lot of spiritual/advaneced self help men. This is not a scammy PUA forum/coaching.

As a whole, yes. But the dating section - no. 

 

[Emerald]

48 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

?

Meeting Emerald on this forum has opened a lot of doors in my psyche.

I'm impressed with this woman. 

 

1 hour ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

?? You're one of the wisest around on this forum, thank you for taking your time to share your knowledge and insights.

Thank you both for the kind words!  

[Emerald]

8 hours ago, billiesimon said:

I beg to differ  Leo actually tends to attract a lot of spiritual/advaneced self help men. This is not a scammy PUA forum/coaching.

I'm not saying these people don't exist here in either of those categories.

But the overall Shadow attraction point here is 'feeling not enough'. 

And my wager is that everyone here has that in varying degrees... and I don't exempt myself from that. 

So, the place you can go to get a look at that underbelly the very most is the "dating/relationship/sexuality" category. And that's because you have a lot of people with that "not enough" feeling, and this section tends to bring out the "not enough" feeling the very most. 

And PUAs have the same Shadow attraction point. So, there is a lot of that here.  

It's a collective community Shadow that both communities share.

[soos_mite_ah]

36 minutes ago, Cireeric said:

Dont forget that in this forum, the man express themselves far more freely and are more likely to express their true agendas or feelings about things, whereas when you as a woman encounter man in person, they will signal higher virtues and try to hide their vulnerabilitys.

I mean that's true that men on here are more likely to be honest but I have also met plenty of normal guys and have been friends with guys who were honest about this type of thing and they aren't caught up in some type of ideology. 

[universe]

@Emerald

Yes I understand, men and women both have their triggers and dissatisfactions when it comes to dating and relationships. It's easy to succumb and get paralyzed by the sheer brutality that is survival. That is why many people start to complain and fall into a victim mentality.

And I understand, there is a lot of unfuckery to do with how our society is structured right now.

Learn to dance.

Because, after all, you are the dance!

[Raptorsin7]

@soos_mite_ah On the forum people are protected by anonymity so they are free to be more true to their actual feelings and thoughts. When you meet someone in person, i'd say the vast majority of the time you're dealing with someone who has their guard up and is very sensitive to how they are coming across. 

Also what kind of men are you interacting with in person? Students, professionals, etc?

@Emerald @soos_mite_ah What percentage of men do you consider high status/worthy of relationship?

16 hours ago, modmyth said:

IMO the rawest deal of all is being a conventionally unattractive woman, or even plain. I'm not going to pretend that whatever issues I've had really compare.

Yeah, especially if said woman wants to date a high value man. Everyone has different definitions of high status, but the people I know in my life with money/looks as men are almost all interested in some degree to looks. I'd be shocked to meet a guy I respected highly who said they would be fully content with a conventionally unattractive girl.

I know I have a lot of immaturity issues so things could change, but unless I feel a strong pull towards a woman from their looks/vibe I wouldn't even look twice. I feel like i'm pretty typical for most young men, but if everyone had my attraction preference no one would be in relationships. Maybe that's why so few young people are in relationships haha

[Consept]

Just thought this was funny