Spiritual teachers with no psychedelic experience

[mandyjw]

Awakening and liberation is about releasing resistance. The path of least resistance looks different for everyone. If you're taking spiritual teachers too "seriously" in first place, there might just be some unnecessary resistance in that. If there is true resonance (Love) beyond judgements and expectations with a teacher, technique, or anything, it's the path of least resistance. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by mandyjw

[Phrenic]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm telling you, the vast majority of spirituality is genetic. Doubt me if you want, but it is what it is.

It's the elephant in the room no teacher dare speak. Yet the facts bear it out. It's not for lack of techniques that creatures lack God-realization. If you are born an ant, you're fucked.

Simple and obvious really. You just don't want to accept it. And none of your rationales or excuses will change this.

But hey, I will not try to debate it or prove it to you. Find out for yourselves.

Here is a brief example of the spiritual approach towards genetics through Hatha yoga -

 

[Enlightenment]

2 hours ago, 4201 said:

this is just more thoughts and worrying which prevent you from being at peace right now.

Thoughts are only part of our suffering. A lot of our suffering comes from feelings, and they don't necessarily have to be caused or accompanied by thoughts

2 hours ago, 4201 said:

The only thing that's holding you back from enlightenment is thinking you can't have it

Why you assume I'm not enlightened?

3 hours ago, 4201 said:

You seem to agree about Leo's blind spot but then bring your own blind spots to the table, claiming that those reasons one can't attain enlightenment

I didn't claim anywhere those are the reasons one can't attain enlightenment. For this discussion to make sense I have to ask you what is your definition of enlightenment and suffering? Just so we are on the same page, because I know people use the same words but mean different things

[vladorion]

20 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

Thoughts are only part of our suffering. A lot of our suffering comes from feelings, and they don't necessarily have to be caused or accompanied by thoughts

Uncomfortable feelings always come with a belief. 100% of the time. It feels like just a feeling only when we're not aware of the belief that's causing that feeling.

Edited April 15, 2021 by vladorion

[4201]

25 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

Thoughts are only part of our suffering. A lot of our suffering comes from feelings, and they don't necessarily have to be caused or accompanied by thoughts

Why you assume I'm not enlightened?

I didn't claim anywhere those are the reasons one can't attain enlightenment. For this discussion to make sense I have to ask you what is your definition of enlightenment and suffering? Just so we are on the same page, because I know people use the same words but mean different things

Enlightenment is not a thing or a property of a person it is the total lack of duality. By defining enlightenment you are creating a new duality which you can use to judge whether people are enlightened or not but none of that is enlightenment. I admit that first sentence feels funny though. Basically defining enlightenment as the lack of dualities using a duality betweens dualities and no dualities? You're better off not trying to define it.

Suffering could be seen as creating a duality between what you want and what is. Basically not accepting the present moment. If you have a "headache", there are sensations in your head you are rejecting. If you have "major depression" you are simply not accepting the present moment and wishing it was something else or thinking there's a "me that is depressed".

Feelings do not cause suffering. Suffering is not accepting feeling as it is and that's in the domain of thought. The opposite of that is feeling it.

[Enlightenment]

2 hours ago, vladorion said:

Uncomfortable feelings always come with a belief

intuition

an ability to understand or know something without needing to think about it or use reason to discover it, or a feeling that shows this ability

Do you claim that if you wouldn't have thoughts as mental talk, you wouldn't have any negative emotions/feelings?

2 hours ago, 4201 said:

If you have a "headache", there are sensations in your head you are rejecting

Yes, the same mechanism which allows me to write this sentence or work or survive at all is also creating an aversion to sensations in my head commonly known as 'headache'. It's possible to meditate up to a perfect equanimity where all aversion disappears but there is no way to do anything in cessation. Also, the fact that even very advanced meditators are only able to get cessation for maybe 30 minutes. There is still suffering in Jhana yet even Jhanas seem to have a natural limit to how long they last

2 hours ago, 4201 said:

If you have "major depression" you are simply not accepting the present moment and wishing it was something else or thinking there's a "me that is depressed".

Bro, you have no idea what you're talking about. Again, states you're referring to where there is no aversion doesn't last long, it's extremely hard to become so good at meditation to have them on demand at least for a moment. No, you don't have to think "me that is depressed" to be very depressed. Animals can get severely depressed, do you think they think to themselves "oh no I'm so depressed" and that's why they are depressed? If you have a genetic vulnerability and get triggered by stress - you may get depressed and dysfunctional for a few years, and no amount of philosophizing will change that, you may be able to reduce some suffering through spiritual practice but not gain cognition and functionally back. Depression is a deeply embedded adaptive mechanism you ain't curing it through meditation. Maybe it is possible to do make some profound fix if one would be getting a constant high dose stream of 5-MeO to the brain, like Leo talks about updating your neurotransmitters but IDK if it's even possible.

Also, tell it to enlightened teachers who have been depressed and on meds (Jan Essman, Kenneth Folk, Martin Ball insomnia issues) and even committed suicide (Nathan Gill)

[vladorion]

23 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Do you claim that if you wouldn't have thoughts as mental talk, you wouldn't have any negative emotions/feelings?

No, mental talk is just a surface level of thoughts. Thinking is mostly unconscious; you have to dig to really know what you're thinking below the surface level. I agree with you though, that stuff doesn't feel like thoughts. Beliefs are like feelings that can be put into words and when you find the exact words, that releases the feeling.

[Consilience]

15 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

you may be able to reduce some suffering through spiritual practice but not gain cognition and functionally back.

This is simply false. You need to talk to more serious meditators who have gone through depression. A combination of hardcore practice, meds and therapy is a powerful healing combo.

16 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

Again, states you're referring to where there is no aversion doesn't last long, it's extremely hard to become so good at meditation to have them on demand at least for a moment.

Again you need to talk to more serious meditators. This is simply false and there are ample anecdotes proving otherwise. It’s clear you are not speaking from direct experience or if you are, you’re not speaking from an advanced level. Get 5000+ hours of personal practice under your belt and then talk about how on demand happiness, equanimity, ease, spaciousness, concentration, etc. are. They are very on demand assuming physical health and physical safety needs are taken care of and stable. Yet there are still plenty of anecdotes of people with terminal and chronic pain illness facing it with radically less levels of less suffering than the average human because of hardcore meditation practice. 

 

19 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

Depression is a deeply embedded adaptive mechanism you ain't curing it through meditation. Maybe it is possible to do make some profound fix if one would be getting a constant high dose stream of 5-MeO to the brain, like Leo talks about updating your neurotransmitters but IDK if it's even possible.

All of this should be deeply challenged. How many hours of personal practice have you accumulated? Do you have a daily practice? Do you skip sessions? How long is your daily practice? How many retreats have you gone on? How many books and real masters have you studied with, watched videos on, or read the books of? How much personal contemplation or journaling on meditation and transformation have you done? Do you honestly think the most complex system known to man is incapable of upgrading its own neurotransmitters? Do you think The Buddha who was swimming in hedonism until his mid 20s was naturally enlightened and the hardcore asceticism/thousands of hours practice had no bearing or effect on his neurotransmitter composition?

Not trying to be aggressive here and Im also not directing this comment at you specifically but anyone reading the thread. It’s very clear Leo has a huge bias on this topic yet we should consider 1) Leo’s relative lack of experience, 2) his health issues which will 100% affect his results with manual practice, and 3) the ego’s self deception mechanisms and how it’ll do anything to justify not sitting in the void of personal boredom. 

Personally questioning we’re so averse to boredom and the ordinary state is critical towards bridging the gap between these absurdly powerful psychedelic states and the ordinary waking experience. Taking on the belief that such a bridge is impossible to build is a huge trap on the psychedelic path and as you’ll discover upon deep inquiry, an incredibly subtle defense mechanism of the ego.

Defend the genetic spiritual talent argument all you’d like. But in 10 years when you’re still suffering, still having to use psychedelics to get reach god consciousness, well... hopefully it doesn’t take 10 years to see the emptiness of this position ?

[4201]

36 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

intuition

an ability to understand or know something without needing to think about it or use reason to discover it, or a feeling that shows this ability

Do you claim that if you wouldn't have thoughts as mental talk, you wouldn't have any negative emotions/feelings?

Yes, the same mechanism which allows me to write this sentence or work or survive at all is also creating an aversion to sensations in my head commonly known as 'headache'. It's possible to meditate up to a perfect equanimity where all aversion disappears but there is no way to do anything in cessation. Also, the fact that even very advanced meditators are only able to get cessation for maybe 30 minutes. There is still suffering in Jhana yet even Jhanas seem to have a natural limit to how long they last

Bro, you have no idea what you're talking about. Again, states you're referring to where there is no aversion doesn't last long, it's extremely hard to become so good at meditation to have them on demand at least for a moment. No, you don't have to think "me that is depressed" to be very depressed. Animals can get severely depressed, do you think they think to themselves "oh no I'm so depressed" and that's why they are depressed? If you have a genetic vulnerability and get triggered by stress - you may get depressed and dysfunctional for a few years, and no amount of philosophizing will change that, you may be able to reduce some suffering through spiritual practice but not gain cognition and functionally back. Depression is a deeply embedded adaptive mechanism you ain't curing it through meditation. Maybe it is possible to do make some profound fix if one would be getting a constant high dose stream of 5-MeO to the brain, like Leo talks about updating your neurotransmitters but IDK if it's even possible.

Also, tell it to enlightened teachers who have been depressed and on meds (Jan Essman, Kenneth Folk, Martin Ball insomnia issues) and even committed suicide (Nathan Gill)

All you reveal to me is how seriously you believe the validity of those conditions. Each of those things need to be transcended and unfortunately I cannot transcend them for you. I went through very painful headaches, quite bad depression and even psychosis. I came to realize that each one of them is entirely rooted in thought, tricks of the mind of sorts. If you disagree with the idea that you are depressed, you cannot be depressed. Depression is a thought, even for animals. Animals might not have language but they still have thoughts and emotions.

You seem to give lots of credits to those people and go as far as call them "enlightened". Nobody is enlightened, enlightenment is not a trait or quality. The fact I had an enlightening experience doesn't mean you should take my shit as gold from now on. I'm as prone as anyone else to fall for tricks of the mind and even get depressed. I "transcended" depression but I could get lost and start believing again that it's impossible for me to come back to clarify with some sort of new twist to the belief. I'm totally respect those people too but I don't think they are immune to anything compared to "normal" or "non enlightened" people.

No matter what genetic or medical condition the body have, you can always accept it. This "genetic vulnerability" you talk about is entirely in the domain of thought. Can you see it? Touch it? Hear it? Taste it? It is literally imagined, thought. Of course animals don't have such complex reasons for depression, it's more like "I'm depressed because my babies are dead". It's still just thought, although probably easier to relate to.

There's nothing to fix, the issue is thinking there's an issue in the first place. Most mental illnesses are imagined, they are "in the head". If it was a body problem, you could see it or feel it directly instead of thinking about it.

Edited April 15, 2021 by 4201

[Inliytened1]

Absolutely everything is imaginary, without exception.  Infinite Mind loses itself in its own Mind so that it believes its real.  And imagination becomes reality.  But you can start noticing this as you start to become more conscious.  It's imagining some things at a much higher level then the level of consciousness where a human is - so normal human levels of consciousness cannot manipulate certain things that are being imagined at higher levels.   But once you understand this you can rid yourself of a lot of suffering because it is understood that it is being imagined and control what you can control.

It's easy to forget all of this though, and get lost in the dream.

[VeganAwake]

Be the watcher.

Watch the mind and how it operates.

Create a gap between the thinking and the identifier.

[freejoy]

Most enlightenment teachers are incompetent.

Most don't know how they became Enlightened.

The ones who think they got Enlightened a certain way teach only the way they got Enlightened.

Most don't love as much as they imagine they do.

There are very good teachers of enlightenment that get results. Most don't get many Enlightened. Alot teach platitudes and tell little stories that don't help the seeker get anywhere near enlightenment.

It also appears that most seekers will need a teacher, a one on one teacher, someone with skill and discernment to see where the student is stuck.

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, freejoy said:

Most enlightenment teachers are incompetent.

Most don't know how they became Enlightened.

The ones who think they got Enlightened a certain way teach only the way they got Enlightened.

Most don't love as much as they imagine they do.

There are very good teachers of enlightenment that get results. Most don't get many Enlightened. Alot teach platitudes and tell little stories that don't help the seeker get anywhere near enlightenment.

It also appears that most seekers will need a teacher, a one on one teacher, someone with skill and discernment to see where the student is stuck.

People who go to satsangs and stuff don't really come for the stories. There is a component of grace that simply comes from being in the presence of the teacher. The stories, in the sense that they're able to awaken someone, simply serves as a vehicle for that grace. Simply speaking about Truth amplifies that natural expression of grace, and you can pick up on that even without registering the words. I can even notice this in myself when I talk to somebody about Truth (in person). It makes me more in present and aligned, quite drastically actually.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[diamondpenguin]

23 hours ago, SamC said:

@Cireeric

LP statement: Developing life changing pills for people to realize the power of God. Making dicks longer.

 

@SamC Could you explain exactly in scientific detail, how your pills would increase the length of my penis? 

[freejoy]

12 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

People who go to satsangs and stuff don't really come for the stories. There is a component of grace that simply comes from being in the presence of the teacher. The stories, in the sense that they're able to awaken someone, serves as a vehicle for that grace. Simply speaking about Truth amplifies that natural expression of grace that a teacher has, and you can pick up on that even without registering the words. I can even notice this in myself when I talk to somebody about Truth in person. It makes me more in present and aligned, quite drastically actually.

Yeah but how many have become Enlightened with them? What percentage?

I don't see genetics being the scapegoat. If one has interest or an inclination then it seems the universe has "chosen" this person. It must be already in their genetics.

[freejoy]

16 hours ago, Phrenic said:

Here is a brief example of the spiritual approach towards genetics through Hatha yoga -

 

Sadhguru likes to tell stories. I've seen him answer questions he didn't even know the answer to. He likes to beat around the bush a lot.

I would guess he has a very low success rate at getting anyone Enlightened. He gets people interested but thats about it.

He likes to pretend he knows the answer to everything imaginable.

Edited April 16, 2021 by freejoy

[Carl-Richard]

29 minutes ago, freejoy said:

Yeah but how many have become Enlightened with them? What percentage?

Probably helped a few people who couldn't do it the diy method.

[freejoy]

7 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Probably helped a few people who couldn't do it the diy method.

I guess a few got accidentally Enlightened because that's how he got Enlightened ...by accident. 

: )

Few out of 1,000,000 

Seems like a lottery to me. Basically a big waste of time.

[Enlightenment]

7 hours ago, Consilience said:

This is simply false. You need to talk to more serious meditators who have gone through depression

I guess twenty years of training in the Burmese Theravada Buddhist tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw, including three years of intensive silent retreat in monasteries in Asia and the U.S is a serious meditator

"I had been led to believe that stream entry and certainly second and third path were so lofty and quasi-holy that by the time you had them, you’d basically be on easy street; if your life wasn’t yet a cosmic bliss out, it was certainly on the way. If anyone had said I would still be depressed after the second path of enlightenment I wouldn’t have believed it. But as it happened, by the standard diagnostic criteria I learned from the Mahasi system, by 1994 I did have second path and I was still depressed. By 2003, I believed I had attained third path too, but my life was still in shambles. There was a rift between what was happening and what I thought ought to be happening. On the one hand, I was a meditation expert; I had a high level of facility with altered states, knew a great deal of Buddhist theory, and had had myriad fascinating and profound experiences. I could easily access jhanas, and use them to temporarily remedy my problematic mind states, but it wasn’t enough. Depression and anxiety continued. It seemed to me that my brain chemistry was seriously fouled up, and this movement via my meditation practice through what I thought of as an organic, somehow biological spectrum of development was not addressing my mental health issues. I was becoming resigned to the conclusion that meditation would help me accept my depression but would not help me overcome it. I bitterly came to terms with my depression as a long-term, chronic problem that might be with me for the rest of my life; in 1999, I begged a friend to take me by the hand to the county mental health clinic and help me ask the doctor for antidepressant medication."

"Now, we go back to, I’m claiming that I had attained Third Path. So, now, we’re talking about the mid-90’s through the early 2000’s, and I was really depressed during this time. So I had access to all kinds of remarkable mind states, all these jhanas, and yet, my life was in a shambles, my brain chemistry was scrambled. I was taking Prozac and whatever antidepressants seemed to work best. I tried several. I was taking an anti-anxiety drug at night, in a very low dose, but I couldn’t sleep at night. So, here I am, you’d think that, according to all of the legends about what an Anagami is, a Third Path practitioner, I should have been really together, and I wasn’t."

7 hours ago, Consilience said:

How many hours of personal practice have you accumulated?

700 to 900 hours if I had to estimate.

7 hours ago, Consilience said:

Do you have a daily practice?

Yes

7 hours ago, Consilience said:

Do you skip sessions? How long is your daily practice? How many retreats have you gone on?

Occasionally, except for a period where I wasn't meditating almost at all at the peak of my depression

Usually 45minutes 2x a day         No retreats

If you're familiar with The Mind Illuminated stages - I can make fast progress and get to stage 8-9 and then a stressful event can easily drop me back to 5/6 again. So it's very unstable for me

7 hours ago, Consilience said:

How many books and real masters have you studied with, watched videos on, or read the books of? How much personal contemplation or journaling on meditation and transformation have you done?

4 books

Haven't studied with any masters in real life but I watched a ton of videos. In the last 4 years, I was basically obsessed with this topic.

8 hours ago, Consilience said:

Do you honestly think the most complex system known to man is incapable of upgrading its own neurotransmitters?

It can but the question is to what degree and how long it takes. And BTW I'm not claiming that once you get depressed, you will be forever. Even in hospitalized patients depression fixes itself within about 5 years, it's an episodic illness even tho episode may last quite long.

I agree that Leo should have more intense practice if he wants to make progress. It took me a while to even learn how to properly meditate and apply proper intentions with proper effort.

8 hours ago, Consilience said:

Defend the genetic spiritual talent argument all you’d like. But in 10 years when you’re still suffering

If anything I have exceptionally good genetics for spirituality as I lost the sense of agency and the sense of self in the first two weeks of meditating which is very rare. For concentration meditation and getting into Jhanas, I'm probably average

8 hours ago, 4201 said:

If you disagree with the idea that you are depressed, you cannot be depressed

You can disagree all you want but taking 3 hours each night to fall asleep because you have anxiety speaks for itself. The only thing that really significantly helps for falling asleep with such severe illness are dangerous and addicting drugs like Xanax.

 

8 hours ago, 4201 said:

Most mental illnesses are imagined, they are "in the head". If it was a body problem, you could see it or feel it directly instead of thinking about it.

It is a body problem. Depression is actually very closely related to arthritis. There are 'objective' measures like significantly higher inflammation levels in the body and brain. Heightened startle response and constant anxiety that makes your cortisol higher and heart beat faster making it very hard to fall asleep.

 

8 hours ago, 4201 said:

This "genetic vulnerability" you talk about is entirely in the domain of thought. Can you see it? Touch it? Hear it? Taste it? It is literally imagined, thought. Of course animals don't have such complex reasons for depression, it's more like "I'm depressed because my babies are dead". It's still just thought, although probably easier to relate to.

I disagree that it's all just thoughts but even if it would be, you can't control or know what your next thought is gonna be, neither live without thinking at all

[SamC]

1 hour ago, diamondpenguin said:

@SamC Could you explain exactly in scientific detail, how your pills would increase the length of my penis? 

@diamondpenguin

Step 1 - You take 5DICKiO - dmt

Step 2 - Your dick becomes enlightened because it realizes that it was an Elk dick in his past life.

It works because facts and logic destroy the dicks ego which makes the dick become limitless

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