Spiritual teachers with no psychedelic experience

[Thought Art]

18 minutes ago, Consilience said:

What seems to be genetic is whether one gets interested and starts pursuing this stuff. What doesn’t seem to be genetic is that serious, rigorous spiritual practice wakes one up. Although yes that too can have a genetic component, but if one truly wants to know God, to know themselves, truly, psychedelics are not needed. In a sense it’s all predetermined and out of our control so it’s all literally genetic/the inextricable whole of reality expressing itself through our singular experience, but from my own experience and communication with others/teachers, if you’re genuinely serious about knowing the truth, it’s available.

Honestly when it comes to honestly approaching different states of consciousness if you have not experienced the state yourself its just belief and dogma. I couldn't be thankful enough for what psychedelic experiences I have had. I could meditate my ass off, do Qigong etc but It's not going to get me there in the same way using all the tools at my disposal will. ie, using psychedelics, meditation, journaling, reading various books, Qigong, yoga, acupressure,  of various kinds etc.

This being said, there are pathways, lives, experiences, states etc ad infinitum I have yet to experience. My spiritual practice which I would consider increasingly integertaive and holistic is just a drop in the ocean. 

Use all the tools at your disposal and really explore yourself with what free time you have. 

@Raptorsin7 No. Everyone can awaken. But there is not just one 'Awakening' there is an infinite amount of awakenings. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Thought Art

[Consilience]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

That is like a bird telling a donkey: "If you truly want to fly, a jetpack is not needed. All you gotta do is flap your arms like me."

This analogy only applies if God is a duality. 

Huge self-deception. God is this moment. Trying to slice some forms of reality as not God and others as God, or “God is unavailable now but if I were to only be in this other state!” is an ego defense mechanism, self deception, and ultimately all bullshit. There is a kernel of truth to the bird donkey metaphor, but it’s critical not to get paradigm locked. 

One of the things a serious sage realizes on the path is that the entire journey was full-blow God consciousness. No jetpacks needed. But as long as the ego keep telling itself this story, it’ll continue to suffer.

An enlightened donkey would laugh at the bird realizing it was already flying through outer space via the Earth and had been the whole time. 

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Spirituality is like 95% genetics and 5% techniques. Gurus don't tell you this cause it's bad for business.

Wouldn't the 95% genetics allow for spiritual mastery, yet the 5% effort to master is still a lot of work?

Consider Kobe Bryant. He is in the top 95% for genetics of athletic basketball. There is no way people with average genetics will reach the top echelon of basketball mastery. Yet for Kobe to reach the pinnacle, that 5% of technique and practice took a lot of work. 

How would Kobe appear to normies? To a normie, a tomahawk dunk is amazing. Very few people can do it, yet they could imagine doing it. Yet for Kobe this is easy stuff. However. . . very few people could access / imagine the "places" Kobe ventured in his practice. I'm sure he went to extremely nuanced, highly detailed "places" that he was only able to communicate with 0.01% of people. There were so few people at the pinnacle that truly that could relate. 

Would it be similar for a spiritual master? Their 95% genetics allows for them to reach the upper echelon of spirituality, yet the 5% technique / practice to reach the pinnacle is still a lot of work. The spiritual equivalent of a tomahawk dunk might be a continuous hour of "no mind". This may seem amazing to normies, yet is is easy stuff for the spiritually gifted. However. . . that 5% technique / practice is still alot of work to reach the upper echelon of spiritual mastery. Yet, the spiritual master would only be able to communicate this with 0.01% of people. It would be like a someone trying to communicate with a donkey. 

[Consilience]

6 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Honestly when it comes to honestly approaching different states of consciousness if you have not experienced the state yourself its just belief and dogma. I couldn't be thankful enough for what psychedelic experiences I have had. I could meditate my ass off, do Qigong etc but It's not going to get me there in the same way using all the tools at my disposal will. ie, using psychedelics, meditation, journaling, reading various books, Qigong, yoga, acupressure,  of various kinds etc.

I have and continue to trip my balls off. But I also understand the utility and significance of serious sober practice and have built enough momentum with it to start experiencing what it offers long term.

Edit: The state of God consciousness is not foreign to me. It is pure birth and death moment by moment, the mind is so present that the conceptualization mechanism holding the ego together through the overlay of memory, mental imagery, mental talk, time, space, separation, limitation, is completely evaporated, more like  eviscerated, and all that’s left is pure being or God. The fabric of reality is seen to be formless, fluid, spacious, a-casual, infinite. Ive experienced collective forms of consciousness, past lives, buried human archetypes, and pure empty infinite Love. But this is not God, and until Leo or those who have accessed God consciousness see that this state is not it, maya will continue. 

Of course in a sense, yes this state is God and yes this state is far more significant than the normal waking state, and yes you could meditate and NEVER access any of that. So how does one solve this paradox? Not by imagining bird and donkey stories. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Consilience

[Thought Art]

1 minute ago, Consilience said:

This analogy only applies if God is a duality. 

Huge self-deception. God is this moment. Trying to slice some forms of reality as not God and others as God, or “God is unavailable now but if I were to only be in this other state!” is an ego defense mechanism, self deception, and ultimately all bullshit. There is a kernel of truth to the bird donkey metaphor, but it’s critical not to get paradigm locked. 

One of the things a serious sage realizes on the path is that the entire journey was full-blow God consciousness. No jetpacks needed. But as long as the ego keep telling itself this story, it’ll continue to suffer.

An enlightened donkey would laugh at the bird realizing it was already flying through outer space via the Earth and had been the whole time. 

Note that God, the Unity in it manifests as Duality. This is why we have different states of consciousness and why many people, who are God themselves deny they are God. 

Yes, it's all God's consciousness but don't think that a Donkey is as aware of itself as a human. Or an average human as God on Earth in human form.

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Leo GuraSo awakening is only for the lucky few who are genetically gifted?

No, because there are psychedelics. Which is exactly the point. You can also modify your DNA and so forth.

And you still have that 5% techniques. Don't dismiss that. You can do a lot with 5% if you really want to.

Awakening is really a technology problem. Gurus don't ever mention this factor.

[Forestluv]

9 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Huge self-deception. God is this moment. Trying to slice some forms of reality as not God and others as God, or “God is unavailable now but if I were to only be in this other state!” is an ego defense mechanism, self deception, and ultimately all bullshit. There is a kernel of truth to the bird donkey metaphor, but it’s critical not to get paradigm locked. 

One of the things a serious sage realizes on the path is that the entire journey was full-blow God consciousness. No jetpacks needed. But as long as the ego keep telling itself this story, it’ll continue to suffer.

An enlightened donkey would laugh at the bird realizing it was already flying through outer space via the Earth and had been the whole time. 

My impression is that the construct is about spirituality, not the the singularity of ISness.

In the context of spirituality, a self / ego is not needed. That is an add-in. In the spiritually gifted, very little ego / self would be operative. Self dissolution may be hard to imagine and access for normies, yet it is easy stuff for the spiritually gifted. 

In terms of genetics, this could mean that those genetically gifted for spirituality have a naturally disconnected neural Default Mode Network  (which controls self / ego). This might occur in only 1% of people or so. Without a disconnected DMN, you've go no chance at trans-ego domains. The rest of us would need psychedelics or years of mediation / yoga to get glimpses of that. 

In Leo's analogy, the spiritual master (bird) has the genetics to form a disconnected DMN (wings). A normal person (donkey) would need psychedelics (jet pack) for trans-egoic consciousness (flying). 

[Consilience]

7 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Note that God, the Unity in it manifests as Duality. This is why we have different states of consciousness and why many people, who are God themselves deny they are God. 

Yes, it's all God's consciousness but don't think that a Donkey is as aware of itself as a human. Or an average human as God on Earth in human form.

I never once said the average human was aware of this, merely making the claim that the genetic makeup required to know this is there. To manifest this potential would require obscene amounts of work the average human would never do. Doesn’t mean the genetic potential isnt there. 

[Consilience]

7 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

My impression is that the construct is about spirituality, not the the singularity of ISness.

In the context of spirituality, a self / ego is not needed. That is an add-in. In actuality, very little ego / self would be operative in the spiritually gifted. Self dissolution may be hard to imagine and access for normies, yet it is easy stuff for the spiritually gifted. 

In terms of genetics, this could mean that those genetically gifted for spirituality have a very unique neural network in the DMN (which controls self / ego). There DMN is naturally disconnected, which only occurs in 1% of people or so. The rest of us would need psychedelics or years of mediation / yoga to get glimpses of that. 

Im not sure what the first paragraph means. From my pov my writing here is more oriented towards ISness, not spirituality. 

Your description of the spiritually gifted makes total sense to me. I imagine as we advance in neuroscience and particularly in the field of psychedelic neuroscience, we’ll get better and better at knowing how to access these states, and possible even facilitate them without psychedelics.   

Edited April 15, 2021 by Consilience

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Im not sure what the first paragraph means. From my pov my writing here is more oriented towards ISness, not spirituality. 

You had responded to the bird / donkey analogy, which I'm considering to be in the domain of spirituality, not ISness.

6 minutes ago, Consilience said:

I imagine as we advance in neuroscience and particularly in the field of psychedelic neuroscience, we’ll get better and better at knowing how to access these states, and possible even facilitate them without psychedelics.   

I agree. We will be able to alter genetics, synaptic structure and brain chemistry - which would give normies a jetpack. 

 

[Thought Art]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, because there are psychedelics. Which is exactly the point. You can also modify your DNA and so forth.

And you still have that 5% techniques. Don't dismiss that. You can do a lot with 5% if you really want to.

Awakening is really a technology problem. Gurus don't ever mention this factor.

I mean, Tantra is sort of this by definition. The weaving of spiritual technologies. 

[trenton]

35 minutes ago, Consilience said:

if one truly wants to know God, to know themselves, truly, psychedelics are not needed.

This mindset reminds me of religion.  Religion becomes susceptible to the "no true Scotsman" fallacy when they say somebody didn't really believe or have faith.  In the case of other spiritual groups there are many people devoted to spirituality who never awaken through traditional means.  We need to be careful when attributing a failure to awaken to a lack of desire for self knowledge.

Maybe we could be committing the same fallacy as religion when we assume anybody can awaken by traditional means if they have a strong enough desire to do so.  From this point of view it also does not make sense to act as if spirituality is for everybody because there is evidence that it isn't.  If somebody is not spiritually gifted and they are resistant to psychedelics, how would they awaken if they were truly passionate about Truth?

[Raptorsin7]

I think we over emphasize the power of psychs on this forum and underemphasize the power of self inquiry/meditation.

 

[trenton]

5 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I think we over emphasize the power of psychs on this forum and underemphasize the power of self inquiry/meditation.

 

That is a good point.  In the United States people would get in trouble substance of abuse.  It is possible that most of us will not have access to psychedelics any time soon.  For most of us, techniques are the best we have.

The advantage to emphasizing the benefits of psychedelics is to undo our programming created by the war on drugs.  At first I was close minded to psychedelics because my parents were drug addicts.  Other people may have a harder time opening their minds to psychedelics and it is driving people away from this site.

Maybe we should make a greater effort to emphasize the power of techniques available to the majority of humanity.  Psychedelics could have a stronger emphasis in politics because this is preventing people from growing their consciousness.

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, trenton said:

If somebody is not spiritually gifted and they are resistant to psychedelics how would they awaken if they were truly passionate about Truth?

The idea of being "resistant to psychedelics" interests me. 

Today I was reading about how some people are resistant to certain medications and therapy. It could be similar: that some people are resistant psychedelics. 

I imagine it would be really frustrating if someone had a desire for awakening, yet was a spiritual normie and psychedelic resistant. 

I saw a video of a woman who had been seriously doing spirituality for like 40 years. Meditation retreats, nonduality, various forms of yoga etc. I think she was at a Rupert Spira talk and was pleading with him - "what is it going to take? I've heard all this. I've done all this many many times for decades - yet I'm still here unawakened". She seemed so tired of it all. I felt for her. 

[Jacob Morres]

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And you still have that 5% techniques. Don't dismiss that. You can do a lot with 5% if you really want to.

 

5%??????

that sounds like peanuts

[Consilience]

25 minutes ago, trenton said:

This mindset reminds me of religion.  Religion becomes susceptible to the "no true Scotsman" fallacy when they say somebody didn't really believe or have faith.  In the case of other spiritual groups there are many people devoted to spirituality who never awaken through traditional means.  We need to be careful when attributing a failure to awaken to a lack of desire for self knowledge.

Maybe we could be committing the same fallacy as religion when we assume anybody can awaken by traditional means if they have a strong enough desire to do so.  From this point of view it also does not make sense to act as if spirituality is for everybody because there is evidence that it isn't.  If somebody is not spiritually gifted and they are resistant to psychedelics, how would they awaken if they were truly passionate about Truth?

Perhaps so.

However, Im not saying desire or faith alone is enough though. So really trying to say “you need more faith!” would be a misunderstanding of what Im attempting to point at. Or at least an interpretation Im not attempting to communicate. Im specifically saying psychedelics aren’t needed. Critical distinction.

Framing it another way, if someone were to want to awaken without psychedelics, if their authentic calling was to not use drugs (which there are multiple people on this forum that aren’t against drugs, but prefer not to use them for x, y, or z reasoning), I believe it is possible without psychedelics. 

[Raptorsin7]

@Forestluv @trenton Of the past like 10 LSD trips i've gotten seriously nauseous and vomitted. I think medically it would be considered psychedelic resistant but I recognize the nausea as a sort of psychological block.

I think it's fair to say that when a person is fully awake/healed etc they would have no problem with psychs

[trenton]

@Forestluv what should a person do if it seems like they really can't awaken?

This is important to know in spirituality because it demonstrates that we can't judge people for being selfish devils.  The circumstances of their birth and upbringing could pose real obstacles to awakening.  If people can't experience God directly, then it looks like they have no choice but to either be religious or be an atheist. 

Cases like these could sow the seeds of doubt in future spiritual groups.  It could lead to atheism if we don't let people know that spirituality does not work for everybody.  Imagine the disappointment people would face of they ended up like the unfortunate woman you described.

I think gurus might ignore this because people can easily turn this into a limiting belief.

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I think we over emphasize the power of psychs on this forum and underemphasize the power of self inquiry/meditation.

I think some people have the right genetics to be "psychedelically gifted". I learned much more in one 4hr trip than my previous 20+ years of self inquiry/meditation. For me, meditation had been nearly impossible - yet it's super obvious with psychedelics. 

Yet some people don't seem to resonate with psychedelics. I have a friend that has tried psychedelics about 15 times and hasn't grown much. For some, psychedelics may be a jetpack for flight, for others psychedelics are a bunch of feathers.