Spiritual teachers with no psychedelic experience

[BlackMaze]

9 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Ultimately everything within the dream is imaginary.  When God (you over there) shifts out of the dream all of this collapses.  It was just a dream.  So we are speaking within the context of the dream right now. 

But why do we speak within the context of the dream if needing the right brain is not ultimately true? This seems to me like a belief that if someone believes stops a possible awakening from occurring. Maybe i am wrong that's why i want to understand why i am wrong but this is something that i don't believe. 

[Inliytened1]

54 minutes ago, BlackMaze said:

 This seems to me like a belief that if someone believes stops a possible awakening from occurring. 

Well if you look at basketball for example- not everyone is going to be at the same level, right?  There are some who are genetically gifted that barely need to practice and can make it to the NBA on raw talent alone.  But talent alone won't take them to the highest level because they will need time to deepen their maturity and consciousness around the game and around life.  So it can be similar with spirituality.  People can be at different levels.   Is it fair?  Perhaps not depending on who you ask

Now does this mean someone with no spiritual gifts whatsoever can't awaken? No...of course not..anything is possible.  It just may take them a bit longer and the use of more tools...

 

[BlackMaze]

@Inliytened1 i'm not really satisfied with this answer. You can't really compare the two. Mostly because it's not about the skills you develop to be an nba spiritual master in the future but to just be now. Everyone is being now but this being is lost in distractions. You don't need the perfect brain to be. Maybe a gifted brain will reach the deepest levels possible easier i can agree with that but to just awake is possible for everyone in 2 weeks if what they do moment to moment is meditation self inquiry and beingness. If they really have a strong intention and reason to do it that is, which is the reason that so few people experience an awakening. To just be interested in this spiritual stuff is not a strong enough reason. Your life being hell is a better one. 

[Mason Riggle]

@BlackMaze everything happens exactly and only if and when it does. 

Imagine a picture with 'hidden images' in it, 'find the hidden object'.. clearly not a difficult task, that almost anyone can do..  some might be able to find them faster than others, but no one can find them 'sooner' than they do. 

And for someone who has no idea about this picture.. has never seen it.. never heard of it.. they might never find the hidden objects.. they don't even know there is a picture with hidden objects to be found..  When will that person find the hidden objects?? Can they cause themselves to find them? 

They will be found exactly and only if and when they are. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Inliytened1]

7 minutes ago, BlackMaze said:

@Inliytened1 Maybe a gifted brain will reach the deepest levels possible easier i can agree with that but to just awake is possible for everyone in 2 weeks if what they do moment to moment is meditation self inquiry and beingness. If they really have a strong intention and reason to do it that is, which is the reason that so few people experience an awakening. 

I think it's feasible for anyone to awaken - even if they have absolutely no spiritual gifts whatsoever...however long it takes is how long it takes.  If they leverage all the tools available, and have a curious, open mind.  No one is disputing that.  However long it takes is how long.

[BlackMaze]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

I think it's feasible for anyone to awaken - even if they have absolutely no spiritual gifts whatsoever...however long it takes is how long it takes.  If they leverage all the tools available, and have a curious, open mind.  No one is disputing that.  However long it takes is how long.

Of course. My only disagreement is with the statement that for an awakening to happen fast without 10 years of spiritual practices someone must be an extremely rare genetic freak. 

@Mason Riggle i agree. Maybe 'we' have no choice in the matter. 

[Mason Riggle]

@BlackMaze ?

"Can you do that which does not occur to you to do? Who chooses what occurs to you?" 

[Consilience]

6 hours ago, Godishere said:

After experiencing these non-dual states of consciousness on LSD and mushrooms, I just cannot believe these states and insights are achievable without psychedelics. I'm not claiming to be be better or more self aware than these anti psychedlic teachers but how have they achieved these mystical states? I just don't buy it, there's no way in a million years I could have had these awakenings without them, which obviously doesn't mean they can't but still.

Speaking for myself, I've reached deeper states than some of my experiences on LSD or Shrooms through meditation. Be open to the possibility that we can radically, RADICALLY, transform the way we experience reality while being completely sober. To be fair, my deepest states have been on psychedelics, but on the other hand, the most profound states mmm... deep meditation on retreat is something radical and comparable to a trip and arguably more profound because of the lucidity, clarity, and stillness of a spacious flowing sobriety cracked wide open from meditation. That's just me though. You very much can experience the miracle and wonder of existence dead sober. In fact, this miracle is available right now, it IS right now. 

Regarding spiritual teachers, yeah I'm skeptical of the ones who dismiss psychedelics. I'm NOT skeptical that they've reached profound states/traits of consciousness because of my own anecdotal experiences with meditation. What I'm skeptical about is the understanding and wisdom they've cultivated. 

Regarding "how have they achieved these mystical states?" A metric fuckton of meditation, contemplation, silent reflection, yoga, etc. You'd be amazed how radically things will start to transform devoting even as little as 2 hours a day of meditation after a year, going on multiple retreats, etc. Now imagine living monastically and it's even more profound what is possible. 

[Inliytened1]

13 minutes ago, BlackMaze said:

 

@Mason Riggle i agree. Maybe 'we' have no choice in the matter. 

He's right ultimately- this starts getting into free will territory- that's what I was saying in the beginning - when God wakes up where does this dream and its meaning go?  - where did the you who thought they had free will go?  Or maybe it was God pulling the strings and it just appeared like you were behind the steering wheel ?

But we can still play around in here...

 

[Moksha]

Suffering is the ultimate psychedelic. It will jailbreak your mind, when you are ready. 

I have never dismissed the power of psychedelics, but have no desire to try them myself. The serious teachers that I have studied, like Aldous Huxley, Alan Watts, and Ram Dass, have extensive experience with psychedelics, and have found that psychedelics alone were insufficient to truly awaken them. They can show you the potential of the spiritual path, but ultimately the work has to be done.

I had thought of psychedelics as a spiritual path, and now he was pulling that conceptual rug out from under me. From the place of oneness where Maharaj-ji sits, psychedelics are just a fragmentary shard of a vastly deeper reality. He showed me they are a limited window, all the while reflecting back to me the deeper place of love within myself…

It was good to visit Christ, Maraj-ji said, but it was better to be Christ. "This medicine won't do that," he continued. "It's not the true samadhi, absorption in God. Love is a much stronger medicine."

- Ram Dass

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Suffering is the ultimate psychedelic. It will jailbreak your mind, when you are ready. 

Truer words could not be spoken my friend....

[Moksha]

@Inliytened1 Consciousness is such a sadist 

[Godishere]

@Carl-Richard @BlackMazeI am by no means questioning your awakenings, but at the same time to have the experience where your conciousness leaves your body and becomes not localized is so fucking radical and unbelievable it makes you question everything. Where duality between subject and object collapses and you become conscious you are not your body and your entire identity is a fiction. Maybe I lack experience in meditation/ self inquiry but still thinking back, In these states of consciousness it just became so fucking obvious that some of these teachers have not had these states and they felt unachievable by just contemplating and "being".

I will work more on my base line meditations and see where I end up, I am open-minded to anything

[Leo Gura]

Spirituality is like 95% genetics and 5% techniques. Gurus don't tell you this cause it's bad for business.

If you doubt this, take a look at a donkey. How many spiritual donkeys do you know? It ain't for lack of technique.

If not for this, everyone would be awake and humans wouldn't be so dumb. It's hard to fix stupid with a technique. That's the bottom line.

[4201]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There is a good reason why less than 0.0001% of the planet is awake. Most folk simply lack the hardware to do it. Psychedelics help bridge that gap.

You don't miss any "hardware". You are god. There is no you that is missing anything to awaken without psychedelics. You just believe you do and that's why you hold back from it.

[Roy]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Spirituality is like 90% genetics and 10% techniques. Gurus don't tell you this cause it's bad for business.

Huh? Could you elaborate a bit?

I know there are probably genetics that affect the psychology that makes people more "open-minded" and in touch with their emotions/spirituality than others, but 90%? Are you saying 90% CAN'T do spirituality at a deep level? Or that 90% of people WON'T be interested in pursuing it?

I mean it's not like University astro-physics where some people won't have the cognitive ability to comprehend the equations no matter what you do.

You could teach someone spirituality though if you hit the right cord with them no? I mean some egos will be denser than others........ 

 

[Mason Riggle]

@Roy yeah, most have the right hardware, just the wrong software. 

Notice that you think in the language that you speak. There are some thoughts you can't have right now simply because you lack the vocabulary.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Consilience]

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Spirituality is like 95% genetics and 5% techniques.

Bullshit.

[Godishere]

@Leo Gura @Leo Gura @Moksha fair enough, I respect your opinion and your choice to not use them. However, I feel like if you took a high enough dose of LSD your entire concept of spirituality would change. Of course the psychedelic is only a temporary state. But these temporary states show you just how far off the mark you are. So far, that even though I'm not in a mystical state, I am still aware I am typing to myself and the boundary between you and me is imaginary.

As for a genetic component, wouldn't it make more sense, your level of social conditioning and the density of your ego . Maybe the genetic component is actually your open-mindedness, intuition and genuine desire for Truth seeking.

For example, I was born into a materialistic household. God, spirituality or religion was never even a discussion. But for me, I just wanted to know the truth for its own sake. I had an intuition that there was more to reality than what I was made to believe. I could have easily adopted some ideology but deep down I knew it was a fantasy and a survival mechanism. The psychedelic completely and utterly shattered that.

 

 

 

[Consilience]

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Spirituality is like 95% genetics and 5% techniques. Gurus don't tell you this cause it's bad for business.

If you doubt this, take a look at a donkey. How many spiritual donkeys do you know? It ain't for lack of technique.

If not for this, everyone would be awake and humans wouldn't be so dumb. It's hard to fix stupid with a technique. That's the bottom line.

We are a product of conditioning. Our society is at a collective level of development where we are conditioned from birth to not be developed or actualized whatsoever. To blame the state of society on "genetics" would be an incredibly shallow statement. Moreover, to blame the spiritual development of the collective on "genetics" is an equally shallow statement. As long as you're operating from the point of view that spirituality is 95% genetics, you will always view spirituality through an astronomically self-limiting lens. I would invite you to consider the radical possibility that the overwhelming majority of human genetics are setup in a way to facilitate Awakening - even if not full-blown Buddha level awakening, but orders of magnitude above what our current collective consciousness is at. 

This is the biggest blindspot of Actualized.org. The fact that it's April 2021 and you still think that awakening through practice is not possible for the mainstream, that it's 95% genetic. This is such an easy excuse not to sit down and turn within, to face boredom, to face the suffering of our ordinary state of mind/consciousness, to slowly and steadily cultivate radical levels of mindfulness, to escape from doing the healing work required to grow up and actualize, which is a part of the awakening process. 

Psychedelics alone will not awaken the world, though they will play a critical role, they are not the singular white knight. If you take the mindset that spirituality is just a genetic lottery, humanity is truly fucked. Luckily, this is in no way the case and to think so demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of manual practices like meditation. Unfortunately your voice is the one that has influence over the masses, not mine, but I would ask and urge that you truly consider why you have such a stark bias, and reconsider this stance. A stance that's bias enough for your gut response to be something like "spirituality is 95% genetic." 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Consilience