What Kind Of Delusion Do I Have If I'm Not Surprised By Any Of This?

[jennywise]

Hi! Newby here - name's Jenny. I've been listening to several of Leo's youtube videos for weeks now & just listened to the Spiritual Enlightenment (the most SHOCKING..) that one. I swear I'm not trying to be cute or anything here, but I already knew all of this- maybe there were a few things that I hadn't conceptualized in quite that way before, but it certainly isn't shocking. In fact the main emotional reaction I have is the same one I have for life in general, which is basically this: Its rather tedious to have to wake up every morning still addicted to all the 10,000 delusions- having to operate within society, within the delusion of self, within the confines of the senses and the attachment to emotion, when I know perfectly well and deep that none of it is real- that this temporary sensation of a self is just something (however silly or alternatively wonderful- just thoughts) that the universe is doing, in the same way that it is doing a donkey taking a dump in Peru, a butterfly getting smashed against a windshield, or a mother saving her child from certain death. The point is, I still want to do good- I still want that child saved, that seal to not be bludgeoned to death, I still feel guilty if I don't bring some money into this household to buy my kids the same junk their friends have- I need these things to have meaning- and yet they don't. I know I need them to have meaning so that I don't abandon my life & kids & go live on a beach somewhere. I want to know the truth for truth's sake at the same time as I know there can be no knowing of it really. But the other stuff sounds great- the mastering emotions part- bc the thing that threatens to drive me completely insane is that, for me, these two things are always simultaneously true in my mind: whatever emotion or sensation I am currently experiencing, and the awareness that that very experience is fundamentally untrue. Plus I cry alot & find it extremely annoying to not be able to not cry when I try to discuss anything deeper than the fucking weather. So I guess I'm just announcing what camp I fall into in hopes that Leo will read this & tell me where best to go from here. Boohoo poor little me, lol!

Edited October 24, 2016 by jennywise
forgot something

[jennywise]

But one would have to take one's self seriously to be depressed- I don't- at all. I am seeking spiritual enlightenment- thats why Im here. I'm just thinking that with this course of study, like any other, the next step on your journey is determined by your starting point. So I just wanted to say that I find these truths he speaks of in that video to be self-evident, but I am still nonetheless very driven by my apparent inability to let go of that which I can no longer ascribe to- that being the ego & it's many false conceptions.

[bflare]

2 minutes ago, jennywise said:

But one would have to take one's self seriously to be depressed- I don't- at all. I am seeking spiritual enlightenment- thats why Im here. I'm just thinking that with this course of study, like any other, the next step on your journey is determined by your starting point. So I just wanted to say that I find these truths he speaks of in that video to be self-evident, but I am still nonetheless very driven by my apparent inability to let go of that which I can no longer ascribe to- that being the ego & it's many false conceptions.

Hi Jenny,

I think i can relate to you. It's as if you know the truth but you also fear letting go of the things that hold your life together & appear to give it meaning?

Also I wanted to master my emotions & that's what made got me interested in personal development but after stumbling across spirituality I am now wondering what there is to master if my emotions are really my ego & false sense of self.

It's all confusing haha

Thanks,

 

Tony.

 

[jennywise]

Hi Tony & 'Undo the Curse'  Thank you very much for your replies. Indeed, what is there to master & also, why? I mean, the whole perspective kind of leaves you with the feeling of, Well, F-it! Whats the point in trying to better myself if there's no self to better? For me, the answer is something like, Well, even if I can intellectually concede that Self is illusory, I still feel the sensations of the illusion, (i.e. I can't help but want to be a better mother, companion, successful provider, etc. because this world demands it. The problem lies in the continual mental fatigue that results from continually holding opposing viewpoints, and how to operate within this world without being subject to it's delusions.

[LaucherJunge]

You guys are really being too negative on this.
My opinion on this is that there are as many paradoxons as there are dimensions which means yes ultimately in the highest dimension we do not exist there is no we. But in the physical 3D world we actually do exist! Sure if you get enlightened you are able to grasp this higher dimension perspective but the truth is life still happens to you in this world. 
So basically what i am saying is wo do exist and we do not exist at the same time.
Living your dream or living your illusion what difference does it make?

Edited October 24, 2016 by LaucherJunge

[bflare]

1 hour ago, LaucherJunge said:

You guys are really being too negative on this.
My opinion on this is that there are as many paradoxons as there are dimensions which means yes ultimately in the highest dimension we do not exist there is no we. But in the physical 3D world we actually do exist! Sure if you get enlightened you are able to grasp this higher dimension perspective but the truth is life still happens to you in this world. 
So basically what i am saying is wo do exist and we do not exist at the same time.
Living your dream or living your illusion what difference does it make?

Could the negativity be coming from the Ego?  Could my false self be denying what is?

Just a thought?

Thanks,

Tony.

[Leo Gura]

@jennywise So you understand intellectually. Good. But you have no idea yet how deep the direct experience of it goes.

There is no Jenny!

So who's writing all these "I am this... I am that... I know X... I think Y... I want Z..."?

There is no you reading this sentence. There is only the experience of a sentence. But no YOU! Take a close look.

What are you if you're not Jenny?

[LaucherJunge]

15 hours ago, bflare said:

Could the negativity be coming from the Ego?  Could my false self be denying what is?

Just a thought?

Thanks,

Tony.

The negative always comes from the ego in my opinion.

[Key Elements]

21 hours ago, LaucherJunge said:

You guys are really being too negative on this.
My opinion on this is that there are as many paradoxons as there are dimensions which means yes ultimately in the highest dimension we do not exist there is no we. But in the physical 3D world we actually do exist! Sure if you get enlightened you are able to grasp this higher dimension perspective but the truth is life still happens to you in this world. 
So basically what i am saying is wo do exist and we do not exist at the same time.
Living your dream or living your illusion what difference does it make?

I totally agree here. The nothingness is the everythingness. It's not just about "there is no you," and "you don't exist," and end of story. Everythingness = infinite possibilities.

Yes, I have to say this now. There are other types of enlightenment experiences than seeing infinity. For example, there has been reports of family members seeing their dead loved ones at the same moment. Check out parapsychology. That's the branch of psychology that studies all these things. Don't be surprised if you ever experience this in real life in a direct experience, and didn't believe it at first. Then, someone else also saw the "spirit" at the same time.

Of course, there are other experiences. There are experiences that confirm your other experiences are "real" and you thought they were not. There are all kinds of experiences. Discover them, but don't get obsessed.

These are great. All in all, just live life to the fullest. Develop a profound life purpose toward peace. These type of experiences give life meaning: life is profound! It's more than just work, work, work, and retire. ☺

[abrakamowse]

23 hours ago, LaucherJunge said:

You guys are really being too negative on this.

I don't see negativity in what they say. I see genuine questions.

When people walk in the way of enlightenment (I know there's no way, just to explain what I am trying to say) when you realize the true nature of things you can have feelings like that. It's normal, not negative. Negative is a concept, there's no one to be negative. Perception happens and one see it as negative others positive and others see them neutral.

At the end you will realize that this is reality, reality is that way. Very real on one side and it can seem unreal on the other. That's our not acceptance of reality as is, that's why we can feel "depressed" sometimes  or confused.

I think Ekhart Tolle explain it here better than me:

https://www.eckharttolle.com/newsletter/october-2011

"It can happen if something happens that you can’t explain away anymore, some disaster which seems to invalidate the meaning that your life had before.  Really what has collapsed then is the whole conceptual framework for your life, the meaning that your mind had given it.  So that results in a dark place.  But people have gone into that, and then there is the possibility that you emerge out of that into a transformed state of consciousness.  Life has meaning again, but it’s no longer a conceptual meaning that you can necessarily explain.  Quite often it’s from there that people awaken out of their conceptual sense of reality, which has collapsed."

 

 

[LaucherJunge]

11 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

I don't see negativity in what they say. I see genuine questions.

When people walk in the way of enlightenment (I know there's no way, just to explain what I am trying to say) when you realize the true nature of things you can have feelings like that. It's normal, not negative. Negative is a concept, there's no one to be negative. Perception happens and one see it as negative others positive and others see them neutral.

At the end you will realize that this is reality, reality is that way. Very real on one side and it can seem unreal on the other. That's our not acceptance of reality as is, that's why we can feel "depressed" sometimes  or confused.

I think Ekhart Tolle explain it here better than me:

https://www.eckharttolle.com/newsletter/october-2011

"It can happen if something happens that you can’t explain away anymore, some disaster which seems to invalidate the meaning that your life had before.  Really what has collapsed then is the whole conceptual framework for your life, the meaning that your mind had given it.  So that results in a dark place.  But people have gone into that, and then there is the possibility that you emerge out of that into a transformed state of consciousness.  Life has meaning again, but it’s no longer a conceptual meaning that you can necessarily explain.  Quite often it’s from there that people awaken out of their conceptual sense of reality, which has collapsed."

 

 

But dont you think that if someone experiences enlightenment he basically taps into another dimension? In our 3d physical world this nothingness that everything is can not exist because physicality has boundries. That is the reason why in our physical world we can not even explain what it actually is it is only explainable in the same dimensional "area" which would only be possible to experience by people who can adapt their consciousness to that dimension and making it impossible to hand towards others in 3D. It makes us actually exist in 3D reality but not in this higher dimension. I hope what im trying to say is possible to grasp out of anothers perspective.

Edited October 25, 2016 by LaucherJunge

[abrakamowse]

41 minutes ago, LaucherJunge said:

But dont you think that if someone experiences enlightenment he basically taps into another dimension? 

Well, I don't know that. If you want to know my opinion, I don't think that's what happens when you are enlightened. But I can be wrong.

In my opinion, when you are enlightened you see what true and real in this dimension, in your actual experience. It's not possible to translate it because we are distorting reality with our concepts and thoughts. 

What I'm saying to you, it is impossible that you know exactly what I am meaning, because the words and everything has a different meaning for me than for you. When someone enlightened talks, he gives the words a much more deep meaning that the one that we can grasp. Because we are not mature spiritually to understand it or accept it.

When I talk to you, you are listening to yourself, not me. Because you are filtering everything I say from your point of view, from your understanding and the same happen to me. I must be losing some of the deep meaning of your words... I am just listening to my self in reality...

Sometimes you read something, and after some years you read it again and you understand it in a different level, that's why we can't grasp sometimes the truth, but I don't think is about a matter of dimensions.

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2016 by abrakamowse
added something

[AlwaysBeNice]

Just go within as much as you can, and if you can't go within, be mindful and trust life. 

[jennywise]

On 10/25/2016 at 8:55 PM, Leo Gura said:

@jennywise So you understand intellectually. Good. But you have no idea yet how deep the direct experience of it goes.

There is no Jenny!

So who's writing all these "I am... this. I am that... I know X... I think Y... I want Z..."?

There is no you reading this sentence. There is only the experience of a sentence. But no YOU! Take a close look.

What are you if you're not Jenny?

Dude, tell that to my creditors! I'm impressed that you participate in the forum, Leo. I find it encouraging too; thank you for your reply. I joke about creditors, but seriously- It's all well & good to experience the void & realize just how much of our lives we spend in a dream- but the dream is per force, is it not? My experience of these things so far is this- when I go looking for the self, I find there's no there there, which points to everything. It renders the sensation that I am an aperture of sorts- and so is everything else- just a way of awareness to be aware of itself. It makes "me" utterly meaningless and simultaneously, essential to the entire universe- cool. But, isn't it almost just semantics to realize life is just a game if we are compelled to play on? I love doing this work- so much so that I find it suspect- like junk food- anything that is this much fun must just be another self-sabotage angle at work- keeping me on the computer, or in meditation pose -i.e. not working. See, this is my lovely masochistic buggabear- I am a master at finding ways to not be materially successful (and yes- I have a pre-existing judgement that rich people are bad.) But I reached a brick wall of self loathing for not being able to follow through on a goddamn thing because I know I'm going to fail anyway, and it's so much more comfortable lying on the couch listening to your scrumptious voice. So apparently I have a clusterfuck rat's nest of issues sabotaging any success, but Ive also come to a place where continuing to self sabotage has become intolerable. So I know the answer already of course- forget about the actualization stuff for now & listen instead to the videos instead that tell me to get off my ass, right?

But here's something I can't contend with- it often seems like it is willing things that I have a problem with, which is interesting. In the 3rd video in the enlightenment series you mention that we must "will" this experience, but does that mean that the will originates outside of the self? Or can the self will itself out of existence- because THAT is where I say the money is- I'd quite like to will myself into an amalgamation of several other people & right the fuck out of this tired vessel. But mustn't I will it? Where does that intention originate & If I can will the experience of my own non-existence, why the hell can't I simply will myself out of all the crap that is holding me back from making changes to that self the moment I realize that I no longer wish to have the attachment to the destructive pattern? OK, I'm stopping bc I could go on forever & this is too long. Btw, I guess this goes without saying in a forum, but I know I'm addressing Leo, but if anyone else has helpful insights I would equally love to read those too. (well , almost equally! ;o) 

[abrakamowse]

33 minutes ago, jennywise said:

But here's something I can't contend with- it often seems like it is willing things that I have a problem with, which is interesting. In the 3rd video in the enlightenment series you mention that we must "will" this experience, but does that mean that the will originates outside of the self? 

I think about that too very often, and I think that in some way nature uses our ego to make us "want" enlightenment. We want it for the wrong reasons, like we want a car or a house... now we want enlightenment hehehe... it is better than when we wanted material things, but it is something "we" want... and the idea of "we" doesn't exists.

But I think there's some truth on that, to the idea of our ego wanting enlightenment. That's how nature or reality works. Maybe expanding consciousness.

You must reach to a point where the only thing you want is to be enlightened, and when you are there... you have to drop that desire too.

And you will be enlightened.

In my opinion.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2016 by abrakamowse

[jennywise]

On 10/25/2016 at 8:55 PM, Leo Gura said:

@jennywise So you understand intellectually. Good. But you have no idea yet how deep the direct experience of it goes.

There is no Jenny!

So who's writing all these "I am... this. I am that... I know X... I think Y... I want Z..."?

There is no you reading this sentence. There is only the experience of a sentence. But no YOU! Take a close look.

What are you if you're not Jenny?

 

4 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

I think about that too very often, and I think that in some way nature uses our ego to make us "want" enlightenment. We want it for the wrong reasons, like we want a car or a house... now we want enlightenment hehehe... it is better than when we wanted material things, but it is something "we" want... and the idea of "we" doesn't exists.

But I think there's some truth on that, to the idea of our ego wanting enlightenment. That's how nature or reality works. Maybe expanding consciousness.

You must reach to a point where the only thing you want is to be enlightened, and when you are there... you have to drop that desire too.

And you will be enlightened.

In my opinion.

 

 

That is so interesting- I never thought about why I seek enlightenment- (but then I'm only recently terming it as such- I've historically just thought, "answers.") I've always done that- even when I was a kid I had a sneaking suspicion that every human around me was terribly confused. I encountered alot of judgement for questioning everything- until I get older & a teacher thinks it's a good thing- (then he goes & bursts that bubble by coming on to me, lol) Anyway, I've just always been a seeker at heart, so seeking 'enlightenment" doesn't feel like something I want- It feels more like something I need to make more sense of the big Whys of life. More akin to an air-hose underwater, than a possession. Plus, I've never trusted myself- anytime I make any proclamation, I instantly tear it down with indignant scoffing that such foolishness is merely laziness in disguise... (Oh, you're soooo deep Jenny, I guess that's your excuse for veing a total bum") -& that's the excuse I have for writing that! & If u get why that's hilarious, you get me!

[abrakamowse]

2 hours ago, jennywise said:

 

That is so interesting- I never thought about why I seek enlightenment- (but then I'm only recently terming it as such- I've historically just thought, "answers.") I've always done that- even when I was a kid I had a sneaking suspicion that every human around me was terribly confused. I encountered alot of judgement for questioning everything- until I get older & a teacher thinks it's a good thing- (then he goes & bursts that bubble by coming on to me, lol) Anyway, I've just always been a seeker at heart, so seeking 'enlightenment" doesn't feel like something I want- It feels more like something I need to make more sense of the big Whys of life. More akin to an air-hose underwater, than a possession. Plus, I've never trusted myself- anytime I make any proclamation, I instantly tear it down with indignant scoffing that such foolishness is merely laziness in disguise... (Oh, you're soooo deep Jenny, I guess that's your excuse for veing a total bum") -& that's the excuse I have for writing that! & If u get why that's hilarious, you get me!

Buddha says that the root of all suffering is our craving for something. Maybe we crave for knowledge, we want to know... that's our craving.

The ego is sneaky. But you are good if you don't trust yourself, that's a good thing. And everything about enlightenment, the paradoxes, etc... is hilarious hehehe...

[cetus]

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 2:59 PM, jennywise said:

The problem lies in the continual mental fatigue that results from continually holding opposing viewpoints, and how to operate within this world without being subject to it's delusions.

Yes, this is a quite precarious position to hold. Think of it this way, you got the best of both worlds for a finite amount of time.

 

4 hours ago, abrakamowse said:

I think about that too very often, and I think that in some way nature uses our ego to make us "want" enlightenment. We want it for the wrong reasons, like we want a car or a house... now we want enlightenment hehehe... it is better than when we wanted material things, but it is something "we" want... and the idea of "we" doesn't exists

So true. Enlightenment disguises itself as another aspect of what ego wants. Tricky isn't it?

 

1 hour ago, abrakamowse said:

And everything about enlightenment, the paradoxes, etc... is hilarious hehehe...

I seen God once. I even dared to peak under his robe. He was wearing a thong. What a paradox that was!

[abrakamowse]

1 minute ago, cetus56 said:

I seen God once. I even dared to peak under his robe. He was wearing a thong. What a paradox that was!

Lmao!

[Capethaz]

@jennywise The issue is that you THINK you know what Enlightenment is. Nothing is more precious than the freedom that comes with awakening. This freedom usually manifests in the "world" as love and compassion. But you have to get the thing done to know.