Georgetown law professor fired after Zoom conversation made public

[Forestluv]

In her defense, one of her colleagues wrote a defense which includes:

Due process and academic freedom apply to professors even when people might suspect them of being racist. We must protect alleged racists because without academic freedom, the anti-racists will be silenced, too. I reject the notion that the only way to end racism is to stop people from talking about racial disparities and punish those who discuss the reality of the racism around us. Instead, we must confront racism and be willing to openly discuss race without punishing those who say something offensive.  

I agree that due process is important. Terminating faculty without due process is destructive. Yet keep in mind that she was an adjunct professor on a short contract and that she voluntarily resigned (although there may have been enormous pressure on her to resign).

As well, this as absolutely nothing to due with academic freedom. Adding that in there is a sneaky way to bolster his argument. 

I also agree with him that discussing racial disparities is important and that it's important to be able to discuss racial disparities without the fear of being fired for a misspoken word. The issue isn't whether racial disparities are raised, it's how racial disparities are raised. I guarantee you, that every minority staff, faculty and administrator wants to racial disparities at their institution addressed. It's how these racial disparities are discussed. 

I don't consider the professor to be consciously racist against black students. My sense is that she wanted all her students to do well and was frustrated that her black students were performing poorly. In her own words, her black students "drive her crazy". This doesn't mean she is consciously racist against her black students (although it's likely she has unconscious biases). Yet it does mean that she lacks DEI skills, which is becoming a requirement for professorships. 

I'm not sure if the University gave her due process or pressured her to resign (she said she resigned voluntarily). As well, she was an adjunct professor on a short contract teaching a side law class. There are literally hundreds of applicants that have knowledge of law and DEI skills. It makes no sense to continue investing in a professor that lacks these skills and is totally oblivious that she lacks these skills. 

One could criticize the University that they should be providing DEI training for faculty members - which is a good idea. Yet in today's age, this is becoming a requirement. My institution requires all applicants write a DEI statement and we evaluate the statement to make sure the candidate is culturally competent and can teach diverse students - beyond just race. I have to teach students on the autism spectrum, anxiety disorders etc. Being "colorblind" was good enough in 2005, yet it's not enough for 2021. 

[Derek White]

1 hour ago, Forestluv said:

I also think it's important that students are paying 30k or more per year for these courses. Even the "low ones" are paying huge tuition fees for these classes. Occasionally, I pause in class and think "each person here is paying $3,000 dollars for this course. From a financial perspective, that means I need to provide good service to every student. 

Yea, and international students have to pay upwards of $100k and tuition is higher for out of state students as well, not to mention the hard-work it takes to get entrance into these institutions: getting a high GPA and volunteering and doing extracurricular activities simultaneously.

I think being a professional means having a positive attitude at work. I don’t think she has a positive attitude.

And it seems like she was gossiping about her students with her colleague. If  she had a problem with black students she should’ve brought it up in a meeting in a professional way. Her tone of voice, her gestures and eyes, and her words all suggest she thinks of teaching as a burden. “I have a lot of angst”, “driving me crazy”; this sort of attitude is not tolerated at higher positions.

 

 

[Forestluv]

18 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

What context? The video doesn't really provide much more.

Do you know what relationship she has with her black students or do you think you know?

If we were honest, we would admit that we all probably know less than 1% of what really happened. So, let's not fabricate stories in our heads here.

Yes, there is a larger context. Yet keep in mind that I have conversed with thousands of professors in over 30 years in academia. I'm very familiar student-teacher dynamics. 

It's not only what was in the video, it's what is lacking. 

She referred to her black students as "the low ones" and how they "drive me crazy". Nowhere in the video did she show any signs of caring for those students, a desire to help them or any DEI skills. This is only a clip, yet if she had said anything in support of their success - it would have been aired. That absence says a lot. DEI is an area of education and she doesn't have awareness or skills in this area. That compromises her ability to effectively teach. She is not talking like a professor that has DEI awareness and skills. As well, no students came to her defense. That absence suggests she did not have good rapport with her students.

With that said, I think there needs to be room for white professors that lack awareness space to learn and grow. To me, how she responded is important. If her reaction was that she was genuinely unaware that she is missing something in DEI and wants to learn to become a better professor - then I think there should be some space. Creating a space in which someone's lack of awareness or unconscious bias costs them their job can be toxic. You don't want half the white faculty at Georgetown feeling like they are missing something and if they say the wrong thing, they could be fired. The underlying awareness and intention is important. 

As well, I think Boomers should be given a bit of a break - almost like a grandfathers clause. These days, most applicants have to write DEI statements to demonstrate they are culturally competent in the classroom. Yet this is a new world for old school professors. I have some sympathy for the professor because I don't think she realizes what she is missing. It all subconscious. 

I highly doubt she was an advocate/ally for underrepresented students, yet if she was and this clip is manipulated out of context it would be an injustice. 

[Tetcher]

Frankly the video shows enough context, she says : "I hate to say this, I have this angst, every semester a lot of my lower ones are blacks". In a private conversation with another white person she gives 2 disclaimers in a row to express that she doesn't say this out of inconsiderate bigotry but simply stating a statistical fact. Now maybe by context you mean why is she even talking about that and what will be the consequence of this statement, but the statement she makes is not malicious in itself.

None of this matters she got already fired. This whole social media racial outrage is not about sense making and if you defend that know that it will hit you someday too. White people are being fair gamed in social media including in this forum where I see anti white racism going unchallenged, you better be sure that the society you're aiming for will be better for you. If we look at the societies around the world through the lense of the controlling ideology and/ or race  we may realize that we may not have an interest at jabbing too much at the west power structures, including if we're part of a minority.

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

Frankly the video shows enough context, she says : "I hate to say this, I have this angst, every semester a lot of my lower ones are blacks". In a private conversation with another white person she gives 2 disclaimers in a row to express that she doesn't say this out of inconsiderate bigotry but simply stating a statistical fact. Now maybe by context you mean why is she even talking about that and what will be the consequence of this statement, but the statement she makes is not malicious in itself.

It is not malicious or conscious bigotry. She lacks DEI awareness and skills. That is a distinction from a statistical fact. 

Imagine a doctor stating a statistical fact that 10% of his patients are unhealthy and he has no idea why, and he doesn't treat them. It's not about the statistical fact that 10% of his patients have are mysteriously ill. The problem is that he is unable to diagnose them as having cardiac problems and unable to treat them. This doctor isn't being malicious, yet he lacks awareness and skills. 

12 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

None of this matters she got already fired. 

She didn't get fired. She voluntarily resigned.

12 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

This whole social media racial outrage is not about sense making and if you defend that know that it will hit you someday too. White people are being fair gamed in social media including in this forum where I see anti white racism going unchallenged, you better be sure that the society you're aiming for will be better for you. If we look at the societies around the world through the lense of the controlling ideology and/ or race  we may realize that we may not have an interest at jabbing too much at the west power structures, including if we're part of a minority.

Yet what type of sense making are you offering here? Your "sense-making" is a simple counter-position to the position you dislike. This is a simple black racism vs anti white racism construct.

You criticize those on the forum going unchallenged, yet how willing are you to challenge your construct. Other people have offered nuances much deeper than a surface level black vs anti-white construct. This example involves minority students performing poorly in a classroom. What are the underlying causes of this? How much of this is due to a student's background? How much about this has to do with individual motivation? How much to do with college course structure, support resources? How can we improve pedagogy to expand accessibility and student success?

You mention looking at societies through a lens. Yet there are other lenses you can be looking through. 

 

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Derek White said:

Yea, and international students have to pay upwards of $100k and tuition is higher for out of state students as well, not to mention the hard-work it takes to get entrance into these institutions: getting a high GPA and volunteering and doing extracurricular activities simultaneously.

There are some barriers that international students have to deal with. I'm working with a brilliant student from Vietnam, yet she is ineligible for nearly all internships in the U.S.

1 hour ago, Derek White said:

I think being a professional means having a positive attitude at work. I don’t think she has a positive attitude.

And it seems like she was gossiping about her students with her colleague. If  she had a problem with black students she should’ve brought it up in a meeting in a professional way. Her tone of voice, her gestures and eyes, and her words all suggest she thinks of teaching as a burden. “I have a lot of angst”, “driving me crazy”; this sort of attitude is not tolerated at higher positions.

I have a similar impression. I don't think she is malicious or intentionally racist. I think she is an average level adjunct professor that lacks professional and teaching skills. Georgetown law school is a high level prestigious school. They have high standards. It isn't some reddit forum.

I do have some sympathy, since I don't think she is intentional or malicious. To her it's like saying "The football players in class always get the low grades, they drive me crazy". 

Being able to teach in diverse classrooms is becoming a requirement for professors in the U.S.

In the larger context, I think the University may be part of the problem. The may be recruiting underrepresented students to diversify their demographics for "branding", financial aid, alumni donations etc. They may recruit underprepared students and not give them the resources needed. The University may be doing some virtue signaling in firing her. I'm curious how many faculty have the attitude that what she said was unprofessional, yet there is a deeper problem at the University that needs to be addressed. 

Ime, administration is very concerned about image. They will go out of their way to protect their image. Many Universities hire PR firms to help them present an image after high profile racist incidents or crimes have occurred on campus. Some spend millions of dollars on it. 

 

 

[Raptorsin7]

@Derek White I think the main driver for the difference in performance is due to affirmative action in admissions.

If you have URM status in the USA you can get into schools way above your left and Gpa. Law school grading is blind and on a curve so when you have a group of students not as academic and qualified as the their peers you get disparate outcomes.

Imagine if the NBA had affirmative action for short players below 5ft8, it wouldn't be a shock if all else being equal these players performed.

I'm not saying there aren't underlying racist causes for why black students are underperforming big picture. But I strongly disagree with the idea that these disparate outcomes are due to professors being racist and if only the curriculum was less racist there would be better outcomes.

[Raptorsin7]

@Forestluv Do you or your colleagues ever fear you will be In the place of this disgraced professor?

The bar for what's acceptable I'd constantly changing, and I'm assuming theres a growing witch hunt vibe where some people are eager to attack their peers so they look more innocent.

Do you feel there are things you believe to be true but are unable to Express due to fear of being ostracised?

[Derek White]

15 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I strongly disagree with the idea that these disparate outcomes are due to professors being racist and if only the curriculum was less racist there would be better outcomes.

There can also be other reasons why black students perform poorly other than racism or affirmative action in university. I listed some in my previous post and there probably more I haven’t listed. 

@Forestluv I feel bad for her but I think she should’ve known better. She is a law professor and social awareness and proper use of language are both at the centre of law... 

 

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Forestluv Do you or your colleagues ever fear you will be In the place of this disgraced professor?

The bar for what's acceptable I'd constantly changing, and I'm assuming theres a growing witch hunt vibe where some people are eager to attack their peers so they look more innocent.

Do you feel there are things you believe to be true but are unable to Express due to fear of being ostracised?

I have not discussed that fear with my colleagues. It could exist as a background fear, yet I don't think it's that big of an issue where I work.

I would agree that there are evolving standards of what is acceptable and there should be space for that evolution. 

I think it's harder for those that teach in the humanities. Teaching science is easier because it doesn't directly involve hot button social issues. Yet I still need to have background awareness of how I interact with students. A few changes I've made since I became a prof 13 years ago.

I know longer ask students "where are you from". I've always asked with good intentions to get to know someone, yet it can be have a weird dynamic for some students that are immigrants, DACA, international etc. I've found it's much better to ask "Where is home for you?". 

I used to ask minority students for feedback as a representative of their race. For example, if we are talking about whether drug laws are disproportionality enforce against black people, it is super inappropriate to call on a black student to share their "insight" as a representative of black people. 10 years ago, that wasn't a big no-no.

I know longer allow students in my office with the door closed. Sometimes a female student about to cry enters my office wanting to shut the door for privacy and she breaks down. There is zero chance I will allow a female student crying in my office with the door shut.

I no longer touch students. Years ago if a student was looking under a microscope, I might have touched their shoulder to get there attention or show them something. I know longer do that. The only time I'll touch a student is at graduation when everyone is hugging each other in celebration. 

Those are a few changes I've made. I don't think it's that hard to stay in the lane. Yet it would be harder if I taught humanities. 

[Derek White]

@Forestluv Do professors get penalized if their students don’t perform well? Of so how does it work?

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, Derek White said:

@Forestluv Do professors get penalized if their students don’t perform well? Of so how does it work?

That's a great question. 

The short answer is "no" and their is very little accountability. There are various ways that colleges may assess student performance. For example, we use a standardized national biology exam. We can look at data and say "Oh look, our students are underperforming in areas of genetics or ecology". We may look to see if we are covering all the topics we should. Yet it is very unlikely it will work it's way to a specific professor. If the data suggested deficiencies in genetics, it wouldn't work it way back to one professor and their genetics courses. 

A second way we can access performance is looking at entrance exams to pre-health professions like the MCAT - yet we will only get general data. 

As well, if students are doing poorly in a profs course the focus is rarely on the prof. They just teach and grade how they like. If there are some poorly performing students, it's assumed that some students weren't working hard enough or the professor graded hard. It's rare for a professor to be evaluated by his peers or administration and held accountable for poor teaching. If administration tried to evaluate faculty, there would be huge pushback for "academic freedom".

If the professor is tenure track, they will be much more concerned about student evaluations. Student dissatisfaction and poor student evaluations is the only mechanism to keep profs in check. And for some schools, student evaluations have a big role. Yet once tenured, student evaluations don't mean that much. Really bad evaluations might interfere with a promotion. Also, they are not that informative. Students are often evaluated by how much they like the professor, the grade they received and how entertaining the prof is. Students aren't always the best evaluators. 

The tenure system is good in some ways, yet not good in other ways. Most administrators and trustees don't like it and try to whittle it away - like hiring a ton of adjunct profs or deny profs tenure. I got a job offer from a college I was interested in. . . Yet then I noticed on three of there 12 faculty members were tenured. They rejected a lot of tenures and kept hiring now tenure track. That was a no go for me. 

Now that I think about it, I really like not being evaluated. Although I think it would also help me to improve. Most of the motivation for professors in intrinsic rewards of being a good teacher and having your students do well. Yet I think there is something to be said for some extrinsically imposed motivation as well. 

[wwhy]

7 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

But that is just one opinion from a mob based on one youtube video.  Maybe and maybe not.   Due process is a procedure where the person accused has a right to receive a precise complaint and the opportunity to respond.

Was she unlawfully fired?

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, wwhy said:

Was she unlawfully fired?

From what I've read, her firing is in a grey area based on Georgetown policies.

https://www.thefire.org/one-georgetown-law-professor-fired-one-resigns-after-conversation-about-black-students-academic-performance-accidentally-recorded/#:~:text=Share-,One Georgetown Law professor fired%2C one resigns after conversation about,students' academic performance accidentally recorded&text=In the video%2C which was,performance in their negotiations class.

[Raptorsin7]

@wwhy I think the school fired her right away, but she claimed she was intending to resign. 

She would be disgraced if she returned anyway. She's a racist in the eyes of most of the faculty and students I can't imagine her quality of life as a professor after that.

[Forestluv]

@Raptorsin7 I'm curious what the culture is like at Georgetown. She acted unprofessionally, yet I don't think it's that's bad. And an adjunct professor doesn't have that much power or influence. Sure, we can hold her to a high standard and perhaps she isn't fit to teach at Georgetown. Yet how much is Georgetown administration responsible? Are they recruiting poor inner city black students to help their demographic numbers, enrollment, grants and donation drives? Are they doing some virtue signaling? I'm curious if faculty/staff/students have stepped up and said "Wait a minute, the black students are performing poorly. Let's find out why. Are we providing enough resources for underprepared students?"

In the bigger picture, firing this professor doesn't do much good if the majority of black students are doing poorly and dropping out of school. 

[Derek White]

4 hours ago, Forestluv said:

The short answer is "no" and their is very little accountability.

This makes her rant even more ridiculous. It doesn’t even affect her, yet she was so irritated.

I don’t know for sure, but you can almost predict that the convo was going to go to “these blacks get in because of affirmative action and really shouldn’t be here!” Their mind naturally goes to that line of thinking, yet there can be so many other factors at play.

If there was a black person there the conversation would have looked a lot different, and I think that’s a problem. 

[Raptorsin7]

@Forestluv @Derek White What do you think will happen to the professor she was talking to? At the end of the clip you see him nodding his head in agreement. I bet many students will think he's complicit in this situation due to his silence.

It may create an atmosphere where you have to check every potentially racist statement or at least show some opposition or hesitation.

[Derek White]

1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Forestluv @Derek White What do you think will happen to the professor she was talking to? At the end of the clip you see him nodding his head in agreement. I bet many students will think he's complicit in this situation due to his silence.

It may create an atmosphere where you have to check every potentially racist statement or at least show some opposition or hesitation.

He resigned. The lady tried to resign but was fired instead.

The point is we live in a stage green society where discussing these things in this manner can get you into a lot of trouble, like it or not.

A transcript of the convo can be read here. The last few lines are pretty weird.

 

 

 

[Epikur]

Reminds of this case:

 

Quote

Professor suspended for saying a Chinese word that sounds like a racial slur in English.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/09/08/professor-suspended-saying-chinese-word-sounds-english-slur