Georgetown law professor fired after Zoom conversation made public

[Peter-Andre]

57 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Why is the usage of the term blacks instead of black people such a big deal? 

Don't we say whites, Chinese, Hispanics, Indians etc? 

Then what's the problem in saying Blacks? 

Its a reference right? 

I usually never say Blacks. But I'm not American either. Could get very confusing to people from other cultures who don't know much about black history. 

 

@Preety_India You could use the same line of argumentation to say that we could also just call them the n-word, since that's also just a reference. I'm assuming you wouldn't argue that though of course. That term has a problematic history and negative connotations. The same goes for "blacks".

Edit: I'd also like to add that people often say "blacks" and also use other similar terms like "gays" and "transgenders", and it often gives off the same vibe. Like @Forestluv pointed out, referring to someone just as a noun instead of "[adjective] people" de-humanizes them. It's often an indication of bigotry. I obviously don't think you are a bigot. I'm just saying that that type of language is often associated with bigotry because of its dehumanizing tone.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Peter-Andre

[Preety_India]

2 minutes ago, Peter-Andre said:

@Preety_India You could use the same line of argumentation to say that we could also just call them the n-word, since that's also just a reference. I'm assuming you wouldn't argue that though of course. That term has a problematic history and negative connotations. The same goes for "blacks".

Well course I am aware that the N word has a derogatory use. 

So i don't understand how I could argue that 

I don't think that saying Blacks should be an insult. 

Then saying Indians or Chinese should also be an insult. 

Blacks means black people? 

Also I don't see where the professor used the term in a racist and disparaging sense. 

She wasn't using a derogatory word such as the N word that people could use during private conversations as was the case with Amber Guyger whose text messages revealed racial undertones. 

All this professor said was the "the lower ones are Blacks." 

She could have easily said "the lower ones are Hispanics." 

She was trying to make a point that on an average it's the black students who don't perform well enough. 

I think the situation is very skewed because she is a white woman and commenting on black people.. 

I think the outcome would have been the same had she said "a lot of my lower ones are black students." 

This case certainly does not show racism in any manner, direct or covert. 

And to be fired over a comment that is hardly racist or derogatory is laughable.. 

This is where cancel culture goes too far. 

She was trying to make a point. That black students don't perform well. Without using the word black how is she supposed to say that? 

So if people from other races talk facts or statistics regarding a particular group of black people, let's say black kids or black women or black students, it would be considered racist??? 

Then how is any discussion on any race possible by that logic?

Racism should be where derogatory language is used. 

Is referring to a black person as a black person racist? 

In my opinion she should have been given a chance to clarify her stand. Instead of being fired

 

This was neither a case of systemic racism nor a case of personal case of racism. 

In many cases, I tend to recognise and fight racism when I see it 

 

But if black people start being offended by even casual references to their community or people, things are going to be very difficult for everyone involved 

This is like taking things too far. 

 

 

 

[Derek White]

The poor performance could also be because of other factors.

-Maybe the campus is located in a white neighbourhood and most black students have long hours of commute to the university which may impact their learning.

-It could be racism in the university.

-Maybe the schools in black neighbourhood grade students differently, or are not rigorous enough compared to the ones in white neighbourhoods.

-Wealth gap. Perhaps black students have to hold jobs after school.

-It could be because the university enrolled black people just for the sake of enrolling black people. A problem in the selection process. We should not rule out this possibility.

Idk if what she said is racist, I need to see the whole video, but she didn’t have to roll her eyes and be so hyper while saying it. As a law professor she should know the general mood of the country and act accordingly. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Derek White

[Jodistrict]

This is how mobs dispense justice as they see it.  That is why in a civilized society there is due process.

[Forestluv]

8 minutes ago, Derek White said:

The problem is when you enrol students in university who are underprepared, they will perform poorly. These universities try to enrol minorities to look “diverse”.

I agree. This is more on the administration side. They are much more oriented toward image and "branding". So they may recruit students form disadvantaged socio-economic backgrounds to show diverse numbers, yet the school doesn't have the infrastructure to support new issues which will arise. For example, my institution had been 90%+ affluent white for over 100 years. Ten years ago, the admin. started recruiting lower income, first generation, minorities etc. From an admin. perspective, it looked great to go from 10% to 35% under-represented students. Yet we didn't have the support infrastructure to address new student issues that would arise. 

The problem with the professor in the OP is that she is marginalizing these students relative to how she wants to teach her courses. Rather than adapt to the demographics in her course, she is annoyed that she can't keep teaching like back in the "good old days". 

14 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I don't think that saying Blacks should be an insult. 

Then saying Indians or Chinese should also be an insult. 

Blacks means black people? 

Also I don't see where the professor used the term in a racist and disparaging sense. 

She wasn't using a derogatory word such as the N word that people could use during private conversations as was the case with Amber Guyger whose text messages revealed racial undertones. 

All this professor said was the "the lower ones are Blacks." 

She could have easily said "the lower ones are Hispanics." 

She was trying to make a point that on an average it's the black students who don't perform well enough. 

There is a larger context than simply the term "Black" and that black students are underperforming. The larger issue is her mindset regarding this issue. Her mindset is not aligned with the ethos of academia and being an effective professor. Her mindset is marginalizing a group of people.

Notice how annoyed she is that she has these "lower ones" black students in her class. She sees them as a hindrance. I've been working with professors in academia for 30 years. There are a percentage of students that underperform and it can be a drag. It takes extra work and quite often the students are unmotivated, miss class etc. It's so much more enjoyable to teach students that are curious, motivated, work hard, attend class everyday and are intelligent. We can get into some fun nuances of content. I totally understand how slower students can feel like a drag, yet as professors we can't categorize and marginalize a these students, which she wants to do. She wants prepared, motivated, smart, achieving students in her courses and I totally get that. Yet marginalizing students because they are a hindrance and annoyance is unacceptable. And her mindset will affect her relationship with students. The students she considers "lower" get marginalized in her mind. She will not encourage them to come to her office hours for extra help and these students will not feel comfortable going to her office. As well, her mindset will influence how she treats "lower ones" and how she grades them. 

I handle this situation very differently. I have students in my courses that underperform, yet rather than marginalize them as "lower ones" that are a hindrance to me, I ask how can we be more inclusive to these students. How can we better prepare them? How can we better engage them in class? How can I better encourage them to feel comfortable visiting my office for extra help? How can we better empower underperforming students? This is the opposite mindset of the professor above. And if black students, in particular, are underperforming it is important data so we can better address the issue. Yet, she doesn't want to address the issue. She doesn't want to deal with them. She sees these students as an annoyance and is marginalizing them. THAT is the problem. NOT the word she used or that black students are underperforming. The type of mindset used to fly under the radar. Yet it's not going to fly now. It is unacceptable for a professor to marginalize a group of students. 

I predict with high confidence that this professor was not fully accessible to black students. I confident she was not working her ass off to help her black students to succeed. She was not emailing her black students encouraging them to come to her office hours. She was not offering extra review sessions for the struggling students in her courses. She was not working toward developing pedagogy and resources to more effectively help her "lower ones". She may have been successful in other areas of law, such as her research - yet she failed as a teacher in this area. And there are over 100+ applicants that are qualified to teach diverse students. This is pretty much a requirement to be a professor these days.

[Forestluv]

14 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

This is how mobs dispense justice as they see it.  That is why in a civilized society there is due process.

This is not a mob reaction. This professor is a failure in a very important aspect of teaching. If she is tenure track, she deserves to lose her job due to incompetence in DEI pedagogy. 

Imagine a cardiologist saying he doesn't like treating patients with high blood pressure - he sees those patients as annoying and allows there health to fail. If his mindset was revealed, he should be fired because he is an incompetent doctor in this area. 

[Jodistrict]

6 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

This is not a mob reaction. This professor is a failure in a very important aspect of teaching. If she is tenure track, she deserves to lose her job due to incompetence in DEI pedagogy. 

Imagine a cardiologist saying he doesn't like treating patients with high blood pressure - he sees those patients as annoying and allows there health to fail. If his mindset was revealed, he should be fired because he is an incompetent doctor in this area. 

But that is just one opinion from a mob based on one youtube video.  Maybe and maybe not.   Due process is a procedure where the person accused has a right to receive a precise complaint and the opportunity to respond.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Jodistrict

[Forestluv]

41 minutes ago, Derek White said:

The poor performance could also be because of other factors.

-Maybe the campus is located in a white neighbourhood and most black students have long hours of commute to the university which may impact their learning.

-It could be racism in the university.

-Maybe the schools in black neighbourhood grade students differently, or are not rigorous enough compared to the ones in white neighbourhoods.

-Wealth gap. Perhaps black students have to hold jobs after school.

-It could be because the university enrolled black people just for the sake of enrolling black people. A problem in the selection process. We should not rule out this possibility.

Exactly. Part of the problem is that the professor is not acknowledging such factors. What you write is basic awareness for a professor in today's day and age. It is the bare bones minimum awareness a professor should have. 

Students struggle for a variety of reasons and part of a professor's job is to help students through certain challenges. There is a certain amount they need to reach out to students. And for many reasons, students keep it inside and are afraid to speak about it. Last semester, one of my students performance dropped. Rather than categorizing her as a "lower one" Hispanic student, I asked to speak with her. She knew I cared about her and wanted her to succeed. I knew something was going on, yet she couldn't share it with anyone. . . It turns out that she is a first generation college student. Her parents moved her to the U.S. from Mexico. Her family does not believe women should get degrees and pressured her to stay at home to have children and raise them. Yet she wants to be a medical student. Recently, her father's kidney disease worsened and he is now on dialysis. It's the the week before finals and the student asked her family if she could communicate with them via Zoom and return home in a couple weeks after finals. Her family shamed and guilt tripped her, saying that she doesn't love the family and told her she isn't welcomed home. This had an enormous emotional impact on her. She hasn't been able to eat, sleep or concentrate. As well, she didn't want to tell anyone because she was afraid her family would find out that she told people to make them look bad. And she didn't want people thinking she wanted a "handout" or "special treatment" because she is a minority. 

There are a lot of reasons students struggle and part of a professors job is to be accessible and helpful. A professor that doesn't give a shit about "lower ones" is a shitty professor. 

[Forestluv]

8 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

But that is just one opinion from a mob based on one youtube video.  Maybe and maybe not.   Due process is a procedure where the person accused has a right to receive a precise complaint and the opportunity to respond.

The youtube reaction could very well have leveraged the situation. It is a very bad look for administration, which could induce a knee jerk reaction. 

Yet we also need to consider that she is a shitty professor that has failed in a key area of education. If she is tenured, I would support having her go through an institutional review process where they look at her track record with minority students and perhaps taking into consideration that she is an older professor. I suppose giving her DEI training. Yet it's hard to train professors who don't give a shit to give a shit.  

I can see having a judicial process, yet I can also see drawing a line in the sand. The institution is sending a very clear, strong statement that they have a zero tolerance policy for not giving a shit. I think it's important that the institution makes clear that this is about the ethos of education and it is unacceptable to marginalize any group of students in their path of education. 

[Danioover9000]

@Raze

12 hours ago, Raze said:

Georgetown law professor fired after Zoom conversation made public l GMA

However one of her colleagues wrote this in her defense: https://quillette.com/2021/04/09/georgetowns-cultural-revolution/

Were they right to fire her, or should she have had a lighter punishment, or no punishment at all?

   I'd give a degree of the benefit of the doubt that her presentation, and the responses to her word usage, is valid enough. Would a different punishment be acceptable? Probably, as I'm not involved nor have insider knowledge in handling these situations, nor have full context of situation.

   However, I'm also careful when it comes to reverse engineering behaviors like body language, and tonality, because such assessments are mostly context dependent, so I have to have that full conversation before verifying that the punishment afterwards is just. Additionally, some people have abnormalities to their behavior, bodily or speech wise, that makes it trickier to be certain that this person has this mindset exclusively. For example, I've seen some people falsely treated my friend's behavior as aggressive, or in a foul mood, yet this was his baseline behavior, and also partly influenced by how he was raised in his family, and his relationship with one of the family members was negative, and partly from the negative feedback. Some people who have social misalignment tend to give mixed signals, which make it harder to conclude if this is the entire mindset of this person.

   Am I biased to favor my friend's side of the story? Yes, and because of my time spent with him, I know his normal state far more than a stranger's first impression would have him otherwise.

   How did this conversation get released in the first place?

Edited April 13, 2021 by Danioover9000

[Preety_India]

32 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

. 

 

There is a larger context than simply the term "Black" and that black students are underperforming. The larger issue is her mindset regarding this issue. Her mindset is not aligned with the ethos of academia and being an effective professor. Her mindset is marginalizing a group of people.

Notice how annoyed she is that she has these "lower ones" black students in her class. She sees them as a hindrance. I've been working with professors in academia for 30 years. There are a percentage of students that underperform and it can be a drag. It takes extra work and quite often the students are unmotivated, miss class etc. It's so much more enjoyable to teach students that are curious, motivated, work hard, attend class everyday and are intelligent. We can get into some fun nuances of content. I totally understand how slower students can feel like a drag, yet as professors we can't categorize and marginalize a these students, which she wants to do. She wants prepared, motivated, smart, achieving students in her courses and I totally get that. Yet marginalizing students because they are a hindrance and annoyance is unacceptable. And her mindset will affect her relationship with students. The students she considers "lower" get marginalized in her mind. She will not encourage them to come to her office hours for extra help and these students will not feel comfortable going to her office. As well, her mindset will influence how she treats "lower ones" and how she grades them. 

I handle this situation very differently. I have students in my courses that underperform, yet rather than marginalize them as "lower ones" that are a hindrance to me, I ask how can we be more inclusive to these students. How can we better prepare them? How can we better engage them in class? How can I better encourage them to feel comfortable visiting my office for extra help? How can we better empower underperforming students? This is the opposite mindset of the professor above. And if black students, in particular, are underperforming it is important data so we can better address the issue. Yet, she doesn't want to address the issue. She doesn't want to deal with them. She sees these students as an annoyance and is marginalizing them. THAT is the problem. NOT the word she used or that black students are underperforming. The type of mindset used to fly under the radar. Yet it's not going to fly now. It is unacceptable for a professor to marginalize a group of students. 

I predict with high confidence that this professor was not fully accessible to black students. I confident she was not working her ass off to help her black students to succeed. She was not emailing her black students encouraging them to come to her office hours. She was not offering extra review sessions for the struggling students in her courses. She was not working toward developing pedagogy and resources to more effectively help her "lower ones". She may have been successful in other areas of law, such as her research - yet she failed as a teacher in this area. And there are over 100+ applicants that are qualified to teach diverse students. This is pretty much a requirement to be a professor these days.

A lot of black people agree with me in the comment section. 

I did not see any malice of intent with the female professor. Maybe she was saying it out of concern for black students. She could have been easily taken out of context. It could be a  slip of the tongue. 

Her frustration could be legitimate meaning that she wants black students to perform better? 

And she is the only one who brought it up? Kinda sad that she was shut down without an explanation. 

A lot of black people also understood her side as seen in the comments. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Derek White]

1 hour ago, Forestluv said:

she is annoyed

I think that’s it. It’s an attitude problem. There are 100s of highly qualified applicants waiting, if she is “annoyed” by low performing students perhaps she shouldn’t teach at one of the most prestigious law schools in USA. I think that’s the standard you should expect from these law schools.

Just an aside, you may enjoy this clip of an Indian professor. See the teaching styles in different cultures. 

This ones good too.

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Derek White

[Forestluv]

32 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I did not see any malice of intent with the female professor.

Malice of intent is not needed to be a shitty professor. If I don't show up to class for two weeks, there is no malice of intent - yet I'm still a shitty professor because I don't give a shit. There are certain levels of apathy that are too much.

32 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Maybe she was saying it out of concern for black students. She could have been easily taken out of context. It could be a  slip of the tongue. 

I find this extremely unlikely. People that have concern for others struggling want to help them. Imagine your boyfriend got into a serious car accident and was in the hospital. If you had concern for him, you wouldn't be on zoom saying he is a "low one" and rolling your eyes in annoyance. If you cared about him, you would be talking about how best to help him. You would be texting him support, you would be visiting him, you would be calling your friends and family to give them updates. You would be asking questions like "what can be done to help him". It would be totally obvious that you care about him and want him to successfully recover.

A professor that cares about the success of their students will be oriented toward helping their students to be successful. If such a professor addresses how some students are doing poorly, the next questions are "why are they performing poorly and what can we do to help them succeed". This is how good professors are hardwired. Just like a good doctor is hardwired to heal people. 

I'm not saying she is a bad person or that her attitude deserves punishment in other contexts. I'm saying that being a professor involves a lot of different skills - one of the skills of an educator is to connect with students, including students that are struggling. In this area, she is a shitty professor. Yet she may be an awesome professor in other ways. 

32 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Her frustration could be legitimate meaning that she wants black students to perform better? 

No. If this was her mindset, she would have expressed it. In this moment and in her classes. If she had this attitude, she would have been contacting her poorly performing students. She would have been encouraging these students to come to office hours, she would have been holding help sessions for students, she would have been announcing resources in class for extra help, like tutor hours. If she truly cared about her students, a whole bunch of students would be coming to her defense. Her black students would be rising up defending her. Students LOVE teachers that actually care about them and they will stand up for a good teacher that is being misconstrued. If none of her students are standing up for her, it says A LOT about her relationship with her students.

As well, she goes beyond simply apathy. Simple apathy would be like "Yea, some of my students perform poorly - but that's part of the job". She goes one step further. She has a vibe that she finds them annoying and wishes the "low ones" weren't in her class so she can teach at a higher level. I totally understand this. It can feel like a drag explaining simple concepts to students that don't get it. Especially students that seem unmotivated and don't want to be there. Yet marginalizing them is inappropriate for a teacher. 

32 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

A lot of black people also understood her side as seen in the comments. 

A lot of people are focusing too much on a specific word or if the phenomena is correct. She may have made a 100% accurate statement - the black students in her courses may be performing poorly. It's not about the phenomena - it's about her mindset about it. Marginalizing a group of students, decreases access to her time, attention and education. She will not offer the same access and attention to them she offers her "high ones". It is a form of "playing favorites". As well, it will affect the way that she treats her black students and grades them. She will have unconscious biases. In this area of teaching, she fails. Yet she could be an awesome teacher in other areas.  

[Preety_India]

2 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Marginalizing a group of students, decreases access to her time, attention and education. She will not offer the same access and attention to them she offers her "high ones". It is a form of "playing favorites".

How are you so sure that she did this? 

Also how is bringing up issues that black students face bringing them down or marginalizing them? How can it not be for their good? 

 

[Forestluv]

@Derek White Oh my!! Crazy videos. 

I totally understand getting annoyed with some students. Some students are unmotivated, uninterested, disruptive and make up all kinds of excuses. I've been manipulated by students trying to get extensions and make-up exams.

I tend to be softer with students and that isn't always the best method. Sometimes tough love is better. 

26 minutes ago, Derek White said:

I think that’s it. It’s an attitude problem. There are 100s of highly qualified applicants waiting, if she is “annoyed” by low performing students perhaps she shouldn’t teach at one of the most prestigious law schools in USA. I think that’s the standard you should expect from these law schools.

It can depend on the school and what they value. At major research institutions, research grants and publications is most important. The professors are more interested in research, yet they often have to teach. I've known a lot of researchers that saw teaching as a burden and they had apathy for all students. My postdoc advisor would hide in the lab during his office hours to avoid students. He would even tell us not to tell any students he is around.

Yet other schools have much higher expectations for their teachers. I also think it's important that students are paying 30k or more per year for these courses. Even the "low ones" are paying huge tuition fees for these classes. Occasionally, I pause in class and think "each person here is paying $3,000 dollars for this course. From a financial perspective, that means I need to provide good service to every student. 

 

[Forestluv]

36 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Also how is bringing up issues that black students face bringing them down or marginalizing them? How can it not be for their good? 

Here, bringing up the issue with black students can be good or bad. It depends on the professor's relationship with the issue. 

A good professor: "I noticed that black students are performing poorly in my courses. How can I resolve this issue? Are black students only doing poorly in my courses? In only science courses or all their courses? . . The good professor looks up data and notices that it isn't only in his courses - it is all biology courses. This means that the problem isn't specifically me, it is a departmental problem. At the next faculty meeting, the good professor brings up the issue to the science department and a good science department starts to address this. Why are the black students underperforming, what can I do as a professor to improve, what can the students do to improve and how can the science department improve? Perhaps we look at data if the black students are arriving to college underprepared - if so, we can provide resources for them. We could offer basic level pre-science courses to help prepare them. How are we teaching our courses? Are we only showing old white guys as intelligent science professors? . . Perhaps we can hire an independent coaching group to give us suggestions for improvement. 

A bad professor: "The blacks in my courses are low ones (eye roll). I wish I didn't have to teach low blacks -  they drive me crazy".

It is obvious when someone genuinely cares about another person and wants to solve and problem because they are oriented toward helping them and solving the problem. 

The marginalization comes in when a professor does not give equal access to all students. This can be very subtle. When a professor sees black students as "low ones" they can pick up on the vibe. Students of color can sense which professors "get it" and which professors are their allies. I have high confidence that her black students did not feel comfortable going to her office hours asking for extra help. I would bet money on it. This gives greater access to her white "high ones" students. As well, the "low ones" get treated like "low ones". This creates a feedback loop that makes things worse. And it's a combination between student and teacher. If a student believes they are a "low one" and the teacher treats them like a "low one" this reinforces that they are a "low one" and makes it harder for them to succeed. 

About 10 years ago, this type of stuff started to be seriously addressed in colleges and Universities. Especially has the number of minority students and minority faculty has increased. In some ways it's still "progressive" - yet for faculty that is aware of these dynamics - its super basic. 

A lot of professors just want to teach the material. They love teaching the concepts, especially to students that are motivated, engaged and intelligent. Yet part of the job is also giving attention to students that are performing poorly. Many professors don't like this. They find it burdensome and annoying. 

This seems like an older professor. It's possible that her courses had traditionally been filled with affluent white students that were prepared and the institution shifted to recruiting lower income students of color to diversify. This would be a hard change for a lot of professors. 

 

[Preety_India]

4 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

. I have high confidence that her black students did not feel comfortable going to her office hours asking for extra help. I would bet money on it.

Sorry I don't. No evidence Bro. 

 

[Forestluv]

7 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Sorry I don't. No evidence Bro. 

 

How many of her black students came to her defense? Zero.

I've taught over 1,000 students as a professor. Minority students know which white professors "don't get it".  

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Guys, are we really debating this? For all we know she said "blacks" instead of using the slightly more politically correct "black people". We clearly lack context here, so pretty much everything else is interpretation. Let's give that women the benefit of the doubt at least.

It's not the word. People are getting stuck on a single word and missing the larger context.

It's not about one word or whether black students are performing poorly at her institution. It's about a professor's relationship with black students and if they can be an effective educator. A professor may be knowledgeable in law, yet if they suck at DEI they won't be a good professor.

[Preety_India]

4 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

How many of her black students came to her defense? Zero.

I've taught over 1,000 students as a professor. Minority students know which white professors "don't get it".  

Hey wait a minute. 

So just because black students didn't come to her defense, it automatically means she was malicious with her comment? 

Your logic is very very circumstantial and built by your own context and assumptions. 

Notice that these are circumstantial pieces that your collecting together to come to your conclusion on her purpose and intent. 

However there is not even 1% tangible evidence to prove that anything she said was with ulterior malicious motivation or purpose as the whole conversation is not fully available. 

So as Leo said the context is too narrow and insufficient to come to the conclusion that her frustration was out of malice. 

In the absence of such context, everything said is pure speculation, even whatever I say 

 

However, I would not want to believe the worst so out of good faith, I would offer her a benefit of the doubt. 

All you can do is just bet. 

Your speculations however were quite elaborate given the scarcity of context