Carnivore: Coronary Calcification and Cholesterol

[EllieG]

Hey Leo,

After watching your recent video, I just wanted to direct you to a couple of resources that might quell your fears about the long-term effects of carnivore on cholesterol and coronary artery calcification. I have not tried carnivore myself as I have always been a pescatarian, so I am struggling with the ethical implications of the farming industry, but I find the overwhelming evidence, both anecdotal and scientific, to be too much to ignore, particularly on the journey to resolve my own health issues.

Firstly, Ken D Berry MD, author of 'Lies My Doctor Told Me' talks about how he no longer believes cholesterol to be an important signifier for determining long-term health after doing extensive research and finding out that these age-old notions do not contain a lot of substance. He posts a lot of videos on YouTube, and I first came across him on the channel 'What I've Learned'. The video 'High Carb to Low Carb to Keto to Carnivore' details his own exploration and results with diet, and it is a good introduction and summary of his experience in the medical profession and his current views on health. 

 

Secondly, Mikhaila Peterson recently posted a video interviewing four people about their experiences with the carnivore diet. One of the interviewees, Kelly Hogan, has been on the carnivore diet for 10 years, and on her recent CT scan, she got a perfect 0 for calcification, suggesting that there is no link between a carnivore diet and heart attacks etc. This could be monitored yourself by scan results as time goes on, as I don't think we know much about what actually causes it. 

Finally, as you mentioned believing that a plant based diet consisting of a wide variety of fruits and vegetables is the best for long-term health, I would advise looking into the effects of fructose. Although fruits contain nutrients, there is a lot of evidence that fructose is worse for the body than glucose; an abundance of fructose can produce a fatty liver identical to one caused by alcoholism. Of course, in moderation it may be okay, but I don't think that our genetics have evolved to eat fruit most of the time, particularly if you are from somewhere relatively cold, so your body may not be able to tolerate much fructose at all.

I think that there is a lot still unknown in the field of health, particularly diet related, and as you mentioned, something that works for one person may not work for another. But if you follow your intuition and your own experience and carnivore is really working for you, it may be worth looking into some of these things so you can thrive and feel good without being worried about your long-term health.

Wishing you the best of luck!

Edited April 12, 2021 by EllieG
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[spinderella]

Nice nice.  I'd also highly recommend anything by Dr. Paul Saladino or Dr. Georgia Ede. 

[Leo Gura]

It's hard to say. Cholesterol is not the only factor. There is a more general question of how healthy it is to eat large quantities of meat. There is also cancer and many other considerations.

I don't think the fructose in whole fruits is anything to worry about. It's balanced out with fiber and many other nutrients. And of course one should not be eating too many fruits overall, more veggies.

[Michael569]

16 hours ago, EllieG said:

en D Berry MD, author of 'Lies My Doctor Told Me' talks about how he no longer believes cholesterol to be an important signifier for determining long-term health

does not matter what some random doctor on the internet believes, the consensus of the evidence is that the higher your non-HDL cholesterol, the higher your risk of premature mortality, stroke and myocardial infarction, end of story. We have data frommhundreds of thousands of people to show for this. These sorts of claims are incredibly dangerous and misleading to the general public most of whom will die from heart disease due to clogged up arteries. Calcification is just a side effect of macrophage accumulation, not the cause. Once you see a calcification spreading, you know you've bought a one way ticket to the afterlife 

16 hours ago, EllieG said:

Mikhaila Peterson recently posted a video interviewing four people about their experiences with the carnivore diet

Mikhaila same as her lunatic father have been called out for sharing bullshit and pseudoscience. Not somebody I would consider a genuine and reliable sources especially since she interviews only carnivores a same way a vegan youtube never gets non-vegans on podcast. 

16 hours ago, EllieG said:

Although fruits contain nutrients, there is a lot of evidence that fructose is worse for the body than glucose; an abundance of fructose can produce a fatty liver

absolutely not true, fructose in isolation leads to fatty liver disease (such as eating high fructose corn syrup, protein bars and drinking fizzy drinks) and so does being obese, being diabetes, eating a lot of meat, junk, being inactive, being hypertensive and generally not caring about health. There is zero evidence showing that fruit leads to NAFLD and I would beg you to share some data with me if you find it. Fruit is protective from all forms of disease including cardiovascular disease, cancer, kidney disease, hepatic disease & dementia. Anyone who discourages consumption of fruits has no idea what they are talking about. Even for diabetics, fruit is helpful and can help them reverse the condition. Even dried fruit!

[EllieG]

I'm not advocating taking these things as gospel, but I think it's worth looking into divergences from the mainstream. There are a lot of disagreements in the scientific community over various topics, and leading science has been proven wrong in the past. I think it's also necessary to take into account which studies are being funded and by whom. 

Given that humans have been eating intuitively for hundreds of thousands of years with no knowledge of the science behind it, I think we would have gone extinct by now if eating what makes you feel healthy was so wrong. 

I am still going through my own process of figuring out what's right and wrong / what works and what doesn't, so I just wanted to offer some of my findings in case it was of use to anyone. I am fully prepared to adjust my views to suit the information I come across, but a diet that has proven so life-saving for extreme health issues but that will also kill you doesn't seem compatible to me. That's not to say that it's suitable for everyone or even optimal for the average person, but I don't think it should be disregarded.

I have found Dr Eric Berg to be a great source, too, if anyone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123

[Binary Encoded Sunset]

6 hours ago, Michael569 said:

does not matter what some random doctor on the internet believes, the consensus of the evidence is that the higher your non-HDL cholesterol, the higher your risk of premature mortality, stroke and myocardial infarction, end of story.

Isn't the consensus of the evidence decided by a whole bunch of random doctors and based upon particular test conditions? What about variables which may not have been factored in? I'm not disagreeing with the consensus that you provided but I'm not sure it's particularly rigorous or even scientific for some random doctor or medical autodidact to declare anything "end of story".

[The0Self]

Vitamin k2 mk7 has very strong theoretical and experimental basis for helping to prevent arterial calcification. Optimally, concurrent with daily calcium intake between 800-2000mg every day, magnesium 320-500mg, adequate vit B6, adequate vit A, adequate sunlight, minimum 100g/d protein (preferably include a collagenous/glycine-rich source), adequate estrogen/progesterone/pregnenolone production, adequate sodium and potassium intake, and proper pH balance.

 

https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-k/research/#sources-and-structure_recommended-intake:

Quote

Two of the three proteins involved in soft tissue calcification (Ostecalcin and MGP) appear to be generally undercarboxylated in non-supplementing populations (10-40% of the proteins not being activated) and osteocalcin is known to be maximally stimulated at 1,000mcg dietary intake or so, which is more than 10-fold higher than the RDA.

 

^^ That refers to phylloquinone (phytonadione; vitamin K1), but Vitamin K2 MK-7 supplementation is far more effective -- providing significant osteocalcin and MGP carboxylation at just 45mcg/day. Carboxylation improves linearly with dose until reaching the diminishing-returns daily amount of 180mcg. Even higher doses provide some additional carboxylation, with maximum carboxylation observed at 500mcg/day vit k2 mk7.

Basically, the only significant dietary source of k2mk7 is natto -- it generally should be supplemented. I recommend Jarrow or Life Extension brand -- they each have a very good Vitamin K2 MK-7 product.

 

Besides whey protein, creatine, magnesium, and collagen, Vitamin K2 MK-7 is the only supplement I use regularly. I do sometimes use others, but not regularly like k2mk7 -- l-carnitine; glycine; l-histidine (1-2g on an empty stomach is a highly effective appetite-suppressant + energy-booster); pregnenolone; EPA/DHA.

 

***

This may be especially helpful on carnivore, considering the high phosphate content of meat. Might want to look into calcium supplementation as well (unless dairy or cultured dairy can be tolerated), as it's not just the daily Ca intake that matters -- the Phosphate/Ca ratio should generally be kept as low as possible.

Edited April 13, 2021 by The0Self

[Michael569]

1 hour ago, Binary Encoded Sunset said:

Isn't the consensus of the evidence decided by a whole bunch of random doctors and based upon particular test conditions? What about variables which may not have been factored in? I'm not disagreeing with the consensus that you provided but I'm not sure it's particularly rigorous or even scientific for some random doctor or medical autodidact to declare anything "end of story".

yes and the consensus is achieved through observing of decades of human data on a lot of real world experience of real people. Granted most of these studies are cohorts, you can't randomize people by giving one group " nice diet" and the other "artery-clogging" diet and see what happens, that would be unethical hence we have no randomized trials on this topic. Regardless of how you feel about it with every 10% rise in LDL and non-HDL cholesterol, people die more, younger and have less chance of reversal. If somebody says these numbers don't mean anything because x, y, z they are being a fool and you can be as sceptical as you want but the majority of population will benefit from keeping their cholesterol low and reducing the intake of saturated fatty acids and animal meat is one of the best ways to achieve that 

[Username]

LDL cholesterol itself isn't a problem. Only sdLDL is dangerous. High levels of sdLDL are mostly caused by consumption of carbohydrates, especially fructose. If I understand high levels of sdLDL isn't enough to cause atherosclerosis, you also need to have constant inflammation.

Probably the issue with carnivore diet isn't fat but lack of fibre to feed gut bacteria.

Here is an interesting article https://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f6340/rr/669222

[Village]

Heart disease was practically non-existent 100 years ago. Meat, eggs and dairy have been around since forever. No amount of soyence can cover this up.

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Village said:

Heart disease was practically non-existent 100 years ago. Meat, eggs and dairy have been around since forever. No amount of soyence can cover this up.

Humans rarely had access to large quantities of meat. It's very expensive and was eaten rarely.

[Michael569]

3 hours ago, Village said:

Heart disease was practically non-existent 100 years ago. Meat, eggs and dairy have been around since forever. No amount of soyence can cover this up.

sight....

 

https://core.ac.uk/reader/81939153?utm_source=linkout

In this current study the authors examined 137 mummies from populations of four disparate geographic regions. Mummies were studied by whole-""bodycomputed tomography scanning and included specimens from AncientEgypt, the Roman Era, Ancient Peru, and five cultures from SouthwestAmerica (ca 1500BCEto 1500CE, five evacuation sites). Finally, there were five ancient Unargan specimens from the Aleutian Islands of modern-day Alaska. Mummies were selected for imaging on the basis of a good state of preservation and the likelihood of being an adult. Random selection was not used. The population examined spanned>4000 years. Atherosclerosis was regarded as definitive if the calcified plaque was seen on the wall of an artery and considered probable if artery calcifications were seen along the expected course of an artery. Of the 137 mummies, 47(34%) demonstrated probable or definitive atherosclerosis: 29 of 76 AncientEgyptians (38%), 13 of 51 Ancient Peruvians (25%), two offive ancestral Puebloans (40%), and three offive Unangan hunter-gatherers (60%;P¼not significant). Atherosclerosis was present in the aorta in 20% ofmummies, the iliac/femoral arteries in 18%, the popliteal/tibial arteries in18%, carotid arteries in 12%. and the coronary arteries in only 4%. Of thefive vascular beds examined, atherosclerosis was present in one to two beds in 25% of mummies, in three to four beds in 8%, and all five vascular beds in only 1%".

 

https://www.arabworldbooks.com/en/e-zine/medicine-in-ancient-egypt-part-2-of-3

A good description of angina pectoris (heart attack) is demonstrated in the Ebers Papyrus:

“shouldst though examine a patient with stomach disease suffering from pain in the arms, in the breast, and on one side of the stomach, say: “Death threatens’” and “If thou examinst a man for illness in his cardia, and he has pains in his arm, in his breast, and in side of his cardia, and it is said of him: it is w3d illness, then thou shalt say thereof: it is due to something entering the mouth it is death that threatens him. Thou shalt prepare for him: stimulating herbal remedies …. 

 

DEGENERATIVE VASCULAR DISEASE IN EGYPTIAN MUMMY 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1034676/?page=4

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/www/external/labor/aging/rsi/rsi_papers/2013/finch1.pdf

[Rajneeshpuram]

The reaason why carnivore diet cant be forever is because people dont eat organs, just muscle meat. If you eat organs and muscle you find the right balance of nutrients.