How multi-perspectival-ism can be real when you know how less evolved are other POVs?

[Nivsch]

I feel Its a very big barrier from reaching stage yellow.

The more I get deep into green, I see how even "Libarals" are not really liberals. After their "justice" protest, they go home, watch TV 2 hours, trust only doctors that will cure them, don't understand their mental problems, don't understand themselves, aren't connected to nature.

Therefore the fact that they blame our leaders in corruption is a little hypocrisy, because they are themselves corrupt because all that I mentioned above.

That's makes me want to be more multi-perspectival in politics as I feel I have already exhausted the liberal POV I was in during the last years.

BUT - How can I do it, if I know that Blue (for example) POV is so far below?

I want to be empathetic with Blue and justified him sometimes, but I know that he is like a 18yo boy and far for me, and I can't really connect with him genuinely, and so its disappointing. 

Yes... blue can teach us discipline, work ethics, order, but thats all? That's all the super-flexible being-in-the-moment yellow approach can suggest us??

I want to find real evidences to make me feel that Blue can sometimes really understand me in places orange not!  There are such places? I don't want to feel always far from blue. I want to give him more credit than that.

And another general question: How can you be yellow if you know that the deep-green POV is 10-times better than all the other views? not liberals, but the real green people which are 10% and has also natural and health awareness.

Again. blue teaches us what I mentioned above, orange teaches us that sometimes its right to get help from western medicine for short periods, red teaches assertiveness... OK but again, this is all the yellow multi-perspectival-ism has to say? it still little, and deep-green is still 10-times better than all of this together. change my mind.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Nivsch

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

I feel Its a very big barrier from reaching stage yellow.

The more I get deep into green, I see how even "Libarals" are not really liberals. After their "justice" protest, they go home, watch TV 2 hours, trust only doctors that will cure them, don't understand their mental problems, don't understand themselves, aren't connected to nature.

Therefore the fact that they blame our leaders in corruption is a little hypocrisy, because they are themselves corrupt because all that I mentioned above.

That's makes me want to be more multi-perspectival in politics because I feel I have already exhausted the liberal POV I was in during the last years.

BUT - How can I do it, if I know that Blue (for example) POV is so far below?

I want to be empathetic with Blue and justified him sometimes, but I know that he is like a 18yo boy and far for me, and I can't really connect with him genuinely, and so its disappointing. 

Yes... blue can teach us discipline, work ethics, order, but come on, its shallow. That's all the super-flexible yellow approach can suggest us??

I want to find real evidences to make me feel that Blue can sometimes really understand me in places orange not!  There are such places? I don't want to feel always far from blue. I want to give him more credit than that.

And another general question: How can you be yellow if you know that the deep-green POV is 10-times better than all the other views? not liberals, but the real green people which are 10% and has also natural and health awareness.

Again. blue teaches us what I mentioned above, orange teaches us that sometimes its right to get help from western medicine for short periods, red teaches assertiveness... OK but again, this is all the yellow multi-perspectival-ism has to say? it still little, and deep-green is still 10-times better than all of this together. change my mind.

Perspectivalism doesn't abolish distinctions. It instead puts distinctions into a larger context. You're still able to perceive hierarchical order (infact it's this ability that gets refined). The differences in scale and style of different perspectives are more readily recognized (global meta-perspectives vs. local micro-perspectives). 

It seems like you want to bring Blue up to the same level as Green. You can't. However, you can extend the same level of consideration for each stage. That doesn't mean you treat them the same, but in considering each stage, it brings you on a level above both.

That is essentially what the Tier 1 perspectives are lacking: discernment between considering a perspective and adopting it (and not just posturing it like Orange but actually embodying it in practice).

Edited April 9, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Mu_]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

I feel Its a very big barrier from reaching stage yellow.

The more I get deep into green, I see how even "Libarals" are not really liberals. After their "justice" protest, they go home, watch TV 2 hours, trust only doctors that will cure them, don't understand their mental problems, don't understand themselves, aren't connected to nature.

Therefore the fact that they blame our leaders in corruption is a little hypocrisy, because they are themselves corrupt because all that I mentioned above.

That's makes me want to be more multi-perspectival in politics as I feel I have already exhausted the liberal POV I was in during the last years.

BUT - How can I do it, if I know that Blue (for example) POV is so far below?

I want to be empathetic with Blue and justified him sometimes, but I know that he is like a 18yo boy and far for me, and I can't really connect with him genuinely, and so its disappointing. 

Yes... blue can teach us discipline, work ethics, order, but thats all? That's all the super-flexible being-in-the-moment yellow approach can suggest us??

I want to find real evidences to make me feel that Blue can sometimes really understand me in places orange not!  There are such places? I don't want to feel always far from blue. I want to give him more credit than that.

And another general question: How can you be yellow if you know that the deep-green POV is 10-times better than all the other views? not liberals, but the real green people which are 10% and has also natural and health awareness.

Again. blue teaches us what I mentioned above, orange teaches us that sometimes its right to get help from western medicine for short periods, red teaches assertiveness... OK but again, this is all the yellow multi-perspectival-ism has to say? it still little, and deep-green is still 10-times better than all of this together. change my mind.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if your looking for advice on understanding or perhaps feeling "yellow/Turquoise".  Let go of the spiral, and its supposed merits and negatives in relation to supposed higher and lower rungs of colors.  Just eliminate the idea of something higher, more complex, more inclusive, more of something in relation to a supposed lower color. Connect on humanness and similarities of being human.  What does everyone share?  Struggles, families/responsibilities/feelings for, survival, all enjoy pleasures and feeling good in some way, good days, bad days......  Look into this from a different angle.

Is a beaver more important then a human?   Such question requires value judgments and criteria unique to each person hearing the question.  Answer from each are all equally relative.  Look into similarieties and likeness of sharedness.  Even notions of complex and more capable are relative....  This may get you a little closer to what your looking for.

[blackchair]

Being humble helps a lot.....

[Nivsch]

On 4/9/2021 at 7:33 PM, Carl-Richard said:

you can extend the same level of consideration for each stage

Can you explain what you mean here?

 

On 4/9/2021 at 7:33 PM, Carl-Richard said:

posturing it like Orange

What do you mean here that Orange does?

Edited April 13, 2021 by Nivsch

[Carl-Richard]

19 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Can you explain what you mean here?

The problem with Green is that it doesn't truly consider the value of other stages, not because it's unwilling, but because it doesn't perceive that there is such a thing as other stages. They are still stuck in "my perspective is THE perspective" even though they're knocking at the door of relativism. 

This initially seems like a paradox, because how can your perspective be THE perspective when you also proport to believe that "all perspectives are relative"? Well, the missing piece here is that one is unable to play the role of someone who is not a relativist. There is still a level of exclusion which we can call the "exclusive-inclusivity paradox". 

This phenomena can be observed in certain sectors of social justice, for example: "we're for diversity and inclusivity, but if you don't agree with us, you can go fuck yourself!". This type of disconnect happens when you're blind to the full causal chain behind why someone is not on your side, and in a classic Yoda fashion, this lack of understanding leads to fear, hate and an inability to consider their perspective (where they're coming from, what causes their needs etc.).

In Tier 2, you start viewing people more as rule-constrained systems rather than free agents. One also recognizes how these systems go through different developmental stages (hence SD) and that they need all the encouragement they can get. One extends actual care and consideration in a strategic way (as opposed to the softness and idealism of Green care), and one does this by "playing their game" so to speak ("Spiral Wizardry"): addressing the root of each problem and meeting them where they're at.

"Consideration" can therefore be about everything from acknowledging the validity of someone's concerns, to seeing these concerns in yourself and society in general, and the need to carefully negotiate these different concerns towards a holistic solution. In contrast, Tier 1 would maybe think "what is the best way to address my concerns and how can I make people adopt my point of view?". See the lack of consideration there?

This is an universal quality of consciousness expansion: when you see the mechanics behind a phenomena, it leads to understanding and inclusion instead of fear and exclusion. When a Green relativist starts identifying/empathizing with the non-relativist points of view, he'll break through that barrier of exclusion and fully manifest the fruits of relativism. Of course all stages are capable of general empathy to various degrees, but it rarely goes beyond what serves them in some way. For example, Blue might empathize with somebody who lost their life's work but not the thief who stole it in order to survive. Higher on the scale, Green might empathize with the thief but maybe not a serial killer. At some point, the survival program (exclusion) overrides the love program (inclusion). Tier 2 is a huge step in the direction of love.

 

19 hours ago, Nivsch said:

What do you mean here that Orange does?

There is a common saying circulating on the internet that goes something like this: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." This captures what Stage Orange is striving for: objectivity, or specifically in this case an objective approach to understanding reality. However, when you're unaware of the systemic and developmental aspects of the human mind, this idea gets very easily overshadowed by a myriad of self-bias/self-deception mechanisms.

To borrow one of Cook-Greuter's concepts, you need access to the "5th person perspective" to actually become aware of how these mechanisms operate (seeing yourself and the world from an elevated meta-perspective). Stage Orange is aware of the "possibility" of this level of self-awareness, but it doesn't realize the depth of the task ahead and the significance of theory vs. practice. Simply adopting the belief that you don't adopt beliefs just on a whim is of course not very insightful and also very ironic.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[blackchair]

@Carl-Richard very nice description of Tier 2, thank you.

[Nivsch]

On 4/14/2021 at 6:40 AM, Carl-Richard said:

The problem with Green is that it doesn't truly consider the value of other stages, not because it's unwilling, but because it doesn't perceive that there is such a thing as other stages. They are still stuck in "my perspective is THE perspective" even though they're knocking at the door of relativism. 

This initially seems like a paradox, because how can your perspective be THE perspective when you also proport to believe that "all perspectives are relative"? Well, the missing piece here is that one is unable to play the role of someone who is not a relativist. There is still a level of exclusion which we can call the "exclusive-inclusivity paradox". 

This phenomena can be observed in certain sectors of social justice, for example: "we're for diversity and inclusivity, but if you don't agree with us, you can go fuck yourself!". This type of disconnect happens when you're blind to the full causal chain behind why someone is not on your side, and in a classic Yoda fashion, this lack of understanding leads to fear, hate and an inability to consider their perspective (where they're coming from, what causes their needs etc.).

In Tier 2, you start viewing people more as rule-constrained systems rather than free agents. One also recognizes how these systems go through different developmental stages (hence SD) and that they need all the encouragement they can get. One extends actual care and consideration in a strategic way (as opposed to the softness and idealism of Green care), and one does this by "playing their game" so to speak ("Spiral Wizardry"): addressing the root of each problem and meeting them where they're at.

"Consideration" can therefore be about everything from acknowledging the validity of someone's concerns, to seeing these concerns in yourself and society in general, and the need to carefully negotiate these different concerns towards a holistic solution. In contrast, Tier 1 would maybe think "what is the best way to address my concerns and how can I make people adopt my point of view?". See the lack of consideration there?

This is an universal quality of consciousness expansion: when you see the mechanics behind a phenomena, it leads to understanding and inclusion instead of fear and exclusion. When a Green relativist starts identifying/empathizing with the non-relativist points of view, he'll break through that barrier of exclusion and fully manifest the fruits of relativism. Of course all stages are capable of general empathy to various degrees, but it rarely goes beyond what serves them in some way. For example, Blue might empathize with somebody who lost their life's work but not the thief who stole it in order to survive. Higher on the scale, Green might empathize with the thief but maybe not a serial killer. At some point, the survival program (exclusion) overrides the love program (inclusion). Tier 2 is a huge step in the direction of love.

 

There is a common saying circulating on the internet that goes something like this: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." This captures what Stage Orange is striving for: objectivity, or specifically in this case an objective approach to understanding reality. However, when you're unaware of the systemic and developmental aspects of the human mind, this idea gets very easily overshadowed by a myriad of self-bias/self-deception mechanisms.

To borrow one of Cook-Greuter's concepts, you need access to the "5th person perspective" to actually become aware of how these mechanisms operate (seeing yourself and the world from an elevated meta-perspective). Stage Orange is aware of the "possibility" of this level of self-awareness, but it doesn't realize the depth of the task ahead and the significance of theory vs. practice. Simply adopting the belief that you don't adopt beliefs just on a whim is of course not very insightful and also very ironic.

Thank you very much!

 

On 4/9/2021 at 7:33 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Perspectivalism doesn't abolish distinctions

By "distinction" you mean to points you can learn from lower stages too when you talk with them?

[Nivsch]

On 4/9/2021 at 9:11 PM, Mu_ said:

Even notions of complex and more capable are relative....

Can you give examples for that?

[Haumea2018]

On 4/9/2021 at 10:35 AM, Nivsch said:

And another general question: How can you be yellow if you know that the deep-green POV is 10-times better than all the other views? not liberals, but the real green people which are 10% and has also natural and health awareness.

Because Green doesn't exist in a vacuum.  It only exists on top of functioning lower levels.  It's like a skin on top of OS on top of firmware (whatever, you get the analogy.)  You take away the lower levels and left to its own devices Green cannot exist.  No Blue law and order and tradition, no Orange economic growth and science, etc.  

Like you said "real green people." It's a tiny niche.  The world cannot be all Green people. It's like a fancy dessert that's nice if you've just had a three course meal, but you're not going to get far eating only desserts.

And since the world cannot be all Green people, that necessitates the foundation of lower levels.

In essence, many of your Green liberals are status signalers.  It's a class thing, maybe not in a traditional sense, but very much in a contemporary sense.  At the extreme ends it's very much like French aristocracy, Marie Antoinette and "let them eat cake."

Edited April 17, 2021 by Haumea2018

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Haumea2018 said:

Because Green doesn't exist in a vacuum.  It only exists on top of functioning lower levels.  It's like a skin on top of OS on top of firmware (whatever, you get the analogy.)  You take away the lower levels and left to its own devices Green cannot exist.  No Blue law and order and tradition, no Orange economic growth and science, etc.  

Like you said "real green people." It's a tiny niche.  The world cannot be all Green people. It's like a fancy dessert that's nice if you've just had a three course meal, but you're not going to get far eating only desserts.

And since the world cannot be all Green people, that necessitates the foundation of lower levels.

In essence, many of your Green liberals are status signalers.  It's a class thing, maybe not in a traditional sense, but very much in a contemporary sense.  At the extreme ends it's very much like French aristocracy, Marie Antoinette and "let them eat cake."

Its all good and fine, but I still don't see here the "Insect-eye" of yellow which finds many partial truths in what lower stages say in many situations.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Nivsch

[Haumea2018]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Its all good and fine, but I still don't see here the "Insect-eye" of yellow which finds many partial truths in what lower stages say in many situations.

That's because you take these things for granted.  You don't even think about them.  All pure Green does is deconstruct lower levels.  It is unmoored from reality.  One can pretend 2+2=5 all you want if it makes one feel better, but there's no avoiding the consequences of pretending it.  And that's Green in essence.  It does a lot of pretending that whatever one WANTS to be true IS true.

[Mu_]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Can you give examples for that?

Well what is  complex?  Isn't the implication of the word only "real" in relation its opposite, less complex/simple.  just words really, but the notions behind them only make sense in relation to one another.  One can not exist with out the contrast of the other.  Yin/yang symbol can't be understood with only yang.... Yang only makes sense with Yin.

Same with capable.  More capable only exists with the understanding of its counterpart, less capable.

I can drive, jump, and swim.  You can drive and jump.  It is what it is.  But then you can say, I'm more capable, because I'm able to do more things.  Which  only means anything in relation to its counter part "less things".

You could also say the statement I"m more capable, because I'm able to do more things, is only true because you and other who agree believe it to be.  Which is true in its own way.  But so is the statement I dont believe it is true....  Not sure if this last part is confusing.

 

[Carl-Richard]

11 hours ago, Nivsch said:

By "distinction" you mean to points you can learn from lower stages too when you talk with them?

Perspective is about making distinctions within a system of nested hierarchical order. It's not about making less distinctions but more nuanced ones. Tier 2 is when the "nestedness" becomes more apparent: that "you" and the world is a result of several steps of a evolutionary progress in several dimensions, where each dimension "nests" and "borns" the higher one through constructive modification. You'll then recognize these steps in other people and use that to understand yourself and the world better.

So yes, you can always learn something from someone lower on the spiral than yourself, because your own spiral still contains those elements within it so to speak, and they're currently more immersed in it than yourself, and that can help you to address some of your own blindspots. When the approach is love and understanding rather than fear and hate, any interaction becomes like scientific research. It will almost always benefit you in some way or another, because the only agenda is inclusivity.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Carl-Richard