When a Girl is saying she is not wearing make up for men is it true?

[wwhy]

44 minutes ago, Bando said:

I can come up with a few reasons,

Societal construct that women have to look pretty to be taken serious

 

Hmmmm....

So in a business meeting you'd take the woman with the big boobs seriously?

It's acutaually the opposite, unless its your dick that always call the shots in all your decisions.

[Roy]

9 hours ago, wwhy said:

What about little girls? Why do they play with dolls and dress them all up pretty and stuff, and like shiny things like glitter and unicorns? Is it becuase they must do it to compete in the cut-throat nursery school dating games for the little boys playing with all their mechanical toys and stuff?

I know you're just being facetious, but yes. They are being taught from an early age how to operate within the culture. It's not like they reach a certain age and it's like "k fun is over time for the real world". It's of coursed being ramped up very slowly and subconsciously.

Why do you think people in the West always say "oh we have no culture", it's because they are utterly BLIND to the matrix of culture that they are in and have always been in. When you finally break through it's like you're a fish being taken out of water.

[Roy]

9 hours ago, wwhy said:

What am trying to say is this.. a man may stand outside his fancy house, looking at his fancy cars, and think of all the great things he has achieved and feel really good about himself. A woman may put on a sharp dress, perfectly saloon-ed hair, nails makeup etc (that only a fellow woman would truly notice) and feel good about herself. We are all MOSTLY driven to do the things that make us feel good RIGHT NOW.

Yea of course there is the selfishness element, it permeates everything. We all may be doing subconscious things "for" other people, but it's ultimately because we want something else in exchange for ourselves.

A man may exercise to feel strong and boost his self-esteem, and convince himself of that. But he's also doing it because he wants the hottest piece of pussy he can get so he can have a wife, and eventually nice kids. All things that are great for himself and his survival.

I'm using course language here to express the brutality of this here. It's funny you bring up crocodiles in some inhospitable jungle, because although our day to day lives aren't like that - What we have now is just pretty superficial layers of survival built on top of that.

Guess what happens if you miss more than 2 meals? People become those crocodiles.

[Emerald]

On 4/8/2021 at 9:14 AM, John Iverson said:

What is really the truth here? 

When girls are saying we don't wear revealing clothes to get attraction from men , or to get aroused, being sexualized or something that clearly, deep down in their minds when a girl is not really wearing a make up or wearing revealing clothes we don't care , you pass by on the street that we're not going to look at you or even bother approach you if girls are not attracted enough physically.. therefore they wear makeup for attraction.. and now they are saying that they don't do it for guys? Please make me know things here

I want to understand girls, and boys.. don't make an argument ... the question is why and what is really happening here, what is the truth from a woman perspective... 

The feminine beautification instinct is just there. But if I were to parse it out, I'd say that the "reasons" are multi-faceted.

Attraction is one of them. Power is another. Persona creation is yet another. 

But as a woman, I can tell you that none of that is going through my mind usually. It just feels really good when I feel beautiful. It just hits an emotional button that feels good. 

And I've had this instinct since I was like 3 or 4 years old. I always wanted to wear my mom's clothes and make-up. But yet again, I was very romantically precocious too and had crushes back then too.

So, it's hard to separate the instinct from my sexuality. And it definitely gets the libidinal energy flowing. 

But am I thinking about the men that will be attracted to me? Not usually. Most of the time, if I am imagining anything, it's more of a persona thing where I imagine myself stepping into my power and my clothing and make-up being an element of that. 

But I would guess that most women are not consciously thinking about men when they wear make-up, unless a particular guy has struck their fancy. 

[Emerald]

12 hours ago, StarStruck said:

I don't think women all doll up and sit at home. Obviously they are in self denial. What do you want them to say? I'm putting make up so a dude approaches me, seduces me, takes me out and fucks my brains out?

I've done that before. And lots of girls do this.

It just feels good to feel beautiful. That's all. 

[Emerald]

16 hours ago, Rilles said:

Its not just for men, its a societal expectation, alot of women feel ugly, empty, or "wrong" when they go without make-up so it becomes a habit, its so ingrained. I tend to think the "Im just expressing myself" thing is complete bullshit, they do it because of beauty standards, they have to do it. Just like how men have to be muscular, masculine and tough. 

Though beauty standards are a menace, I can confidently say that fashion and make-up are a form of self-expression for the majority of women.

It just happens to be a form of self-expression that engages many cultural complications and wounds around femininity. 

It's a little bit like loving to play the violin, but your hands are covered in blisters. So, you have to endure the blisters to play it. 

So, what you must understand is that many women love to use make-up and clothing for self-expression. Just like a little girl who gets into her mother's make-up and revels in playing dress up.

It's just hard to unpick from all the weird societal stuff. 

So, it's very much not bullshit.

If I didn't resonate with it, I wouldn't do it. 

[wwhy]

1 hour ago, Roy said:

I know you're just being facetious, but yes. They are being taught from an early age how to operate within the culture. It's not like they reach a certain age and it's like "k fun is over time for the real world". It's of coursed being ramped up very slowly and subconsciously.

Why do you think people in the West always say "oh we have no culture", it's because they are utterly BLIND to the matrix of culture that they are in and have always been in. When you finally break through it's like you're a fish being taken out of water.

Aaah... ye old Nature vs Nurture Debate.

It seems you fall completely in the nurture camp, and believe everything we are is just "matrix cultural conditioning". What about a young female sheep then... does it display feminine tendencies because of the matrix programming of the sheep culture?

[wwhy]

1 hour ago, Roy said:

Guess what happens if you miss more than 2 meals? People become those crocodiles.

There are many people driving BMWs and eating 4 meals a day who behave like crocodiles.

[Rilles]

5 hours ago, wwhy said:

Aaah... ye old Nature vs Nurture Debate.

It seems you fall completely in the nurture camp, and believe everything we are is just "matrix cultural conditioning". What about a young female sheep then... does it display feminine tendencies because of the matrix programming of the sheep culture?

Im on the nurture side of the debate...

[Brandon Nankivell]

16 hours ago, intotheblack said:

Some reasons people wear makeup..

Because they want to 

Boost Confidence 

Acne/skin problems 

Emphasise features 

Creativity 

experimenting with different products/colours 

Look better on camera - men also wear natural makeup to go on TV and do photo shoots  

To look older 

Or.. to look younger 

It’s fun to apply and practice with - Being able to do makeup well is a skill 

Fit in to social beauty expectations 

to be accepted by both women and men by looking more attractive

Culture or friend group - whether or not your sisters/mother/friends wear makeup

to dress up and feel pretty or cute 

women aren’t wearing makeup for the purpose of going out and meeting a man.  It’s much bigger than that. 

Because they want to

Why do they want to?

Boost Confidence

Why boost confidence?

Acne/skin problems

Why do you want clear skin?

Creativity / experimenting

Awesome!

Look better

Why do you want to look better?

Look older

Why?

Look younger

Why?

...

Many of these responses are likely to chalk down to:

• Because it makes me feel good
  • Confidence: I feel good!
  • Look younger: I feel good!
  • Look better: I feel good!
  • Emphasize features > Look better > I feel good!
  • Clearer skin: I feel good!

Why do these things make you feel good? Could it be nature's way of saying that this is some kind of ideal? And isn't it wild that make-up can achieve all these things?

High-value men typically gravitate towards a woman who looks younger, looks better, has clearer skin, has confidence, feels good etc. This is made clear in studies by Evolutionary Psychologist David Buss, not that you really need studies to observe this in the world.

women aren’t wearing makeup for the purpose of going out and meeting a man.  It’s much bigger than that.

Just two examples of two women of the millions of women there are in this world, stating explicitly or tacitly wearing makeup for meeting a man would render this untrue. I find it highly unlikely you couldn't find at least two.

Like a single, lonely 36-year-old woman who is past her prime and is wanting a new man in her life. To think that just a few of millions of these archetypal women who would admit the use of make-up in order to attract / meet a man of their liking?

Highly likely!

I speculate that most don't want to admit it because it can be seen as needy and repelling.

What's more likely is multiple reasons bundled together, with attraction being high on the list, creativity and fun being others. It's interesting though that make-up is highly dominant and extremely common among women as a so-called creative outlet, versus all the other things that could be done as creative expression, hence the scepticism around creativity being a prime reason for make-up.

The lip-stick effect is also significant enough to consider:

Quote

Sarah Hill and her colleagues found that when women are primed by cues of economic hardship, they actually ramp up their spending on beauty-enhancement products [To be more creative? To have more fun? I think not!]—a phenomenon called “the lipstick effect” (Hill, Rodeheffer, Griskevicius, Durante, & White, 2012). These beauty-enhancement products presumably are used by women to attract men with resources.

-David Buss, Evolutionary Psychology

This excerpt too:

Quote

 

Women do not compete to signal accurate information. Rather, they compete to activate men’s evolved psychological standards of beauty, which are keyed to youth and health. Because flushed cheeks and high color are cues that men use to gauge a woman’s health, women rouge their cheeks artificially to trigger men’s attraction. Because smooth, clear skin is one of men’s evolved desires, women cover up blemishes, use moisture cream, apply astringents, and get facelifts. Because lustrous hair is one of men’s evolved desires, women highlight, bleach, tint, or dye their hair, and they give it extra body with conditioners, egg yolks, beer, or weaves. Because full red lips trigger men’s evolved desires, women apply lipstick skillfully and even get injections to enlarge their lips for the “bee-stung” look. And because firm, youthful breasts stimulate men’s desires, women obtain breast implants and wear push-up bras.

Women report using makeup to accentuate their looks twenty times as often as men. Women go on diets to improve their figures, get new and interesting haircuts, and spend over an hour a day on their appearance—twice as much time as men spend on theirs. They lie out in the sun or go to tanning salons to achieve a healthy-looking glow. Appearance enhancement for attracting a mate is twice as effective for women as for men.25 In contrast, men who devote excessive attention to enhancing their appearance can hurt their competitive chances; people sometimes infer that they are narcissistic or self-absorbed.26

Women do more to improve their appearance than meets the eye. They use deceptive tactics to manipulate their appearance. They wear false fingernails to make their hands appear longer and their fingers more elegant; wear heels to accentuate leg length, bum protrusion, and calf shape; wear dark clothing and vertical stripes to appear thinner; apply spray tan to appear sun-kissed; pull in their stomachs or cinch their waists to enhance their waist-to-hip ratio; wear body-shaping undergarments like Spanx to appear leaner and firmer; wear padded bras to appear bustier [Are padded bras, risky breast implants etc... for fun and creative expression? I think not! More likely: feel good about yourself. Perhaps nature's reward because nature knows that you're more likely to attract a man with resources and therefore survive]; and highlight their hair to appear more youthful.

Women are well aware of the importance of appearance on the mating market. After interviews with women in singles bars, researchers reported that many of them “said that they went home from work before going out to the bars to do a whole revamping.” Often, before going out for the evening, they would take a bath, wash their hair, put on fresh makeup, and go through three changes of outfits before selecting one. “Primping for us counts more than for guys—they don’t need to worry about their looks as much.”27 The ability to make men’s heads turn signals a highly desirable mate and evokes advances from more men. This effect enlarges the pool of men and, in turn, gives women a greater ability to choose high-mate-value men.

Women do not merely strive to improve their own looks; they also disparage the looks of other women. Women in the derogation study mentioned that their rivals were fat, ugly, and unattractive, had “thunder thighs,” and had shapeless bodies. Making fun of a rival’s appearance is more effective for women in the sexual marketplace than in the marriage marketplace. And it is more effective for women than for men in both short-term and long-term mating contexts.

-David Buss, The Evolution of Desire

 

As some other women have suggested, it's not like you are consciously thinking 'I'm doing this to attract a mate'. But I propose that it's highly likely that it's rife in your subconscious.

Why do we do anything when we really get down to it?

Survival and reproduction.

How to survive and reproduce?

Attract a mate with resources so you have more security in your current and future prospects of sleeping, eating, drinking, parenting a child, and not get attacked by a lion.

How to attract a mate with resources?

Look good (indicates health and fertility for reproduction), as every study ever will assert, again not that you need studies to observe this in the world.

How to look good?

Make-up does a pretty good job! Just ask numerous men or reflect on many women's dating experiences with make-up versus no make-up!

[intotheblack]

1 hour ago, Brandon Nankivell said:

Like a single, lonely 36-year-old woman who is past her prime and is wanting a new man in her life.

Just one example of how women are viewed already at the age of only 36 as being past it.  
 

@Brandon Nankivell women are well aware of the impossible beauty standards that society sets for them and they play into that game.  

Some play the game more seriously than others.  Some just have some fun with it and don’t take it too serious.  

Today.. Make-up and skin products are marketed directly towards the insecurities of women.  Magazines, Instagram etc etc are there precisely to feed people’s insecurities, leading the beauty industry and plastic surgeons to profit billions every year off the back of people’s negative self image and feelings of inadequacy.
It’s all very toxic stage orange and superficial. 
There is no denying that.. 

It’s programmed from an early age, most of it is unconscious and woven so deep into the fabric of society that it’s just normal.  Your mother wears makeup so then you do, your friends use makeup so you do, shops are selling it, you see it on tv and in magazines.  Then without realising it, it’s just a part of your life.  

I think this is also more prominent in countries where there is a heavy media influence.  
Even more so now with Instagram, makeup artists have now became advertisers for beauty brands.  Now you see girls wearing more makeup than ever, there is now a different product and brush for each fraction of the face.  There are thousands of colours to choose from.  Consumerism driven. 

Personally I think women in this game are in fact judged more by other women for how they look.  Women try to outdo other women.   
At a certain point, is that even about trying to attract a man or just trying to get validation for oneself and prove you are better looking than another girl?  So yeah, ego trying to survive. 

I feel like men on an individual level really aren’t that judgemental about women’s looks,  Of course they are to some degree... they want to be attracted to their girl.  

But I don’t think most guys are constantly judging their girlfriend for having some acne breakout, or for not having perfect hair or a perfect body...Unless they are the very superficial/ bitchy type.

.... 

Makeup can be enjoyed in a non toxic way though.  It’s not all survival of the fittest.  There is still a very feminine aspect to it all, which is also natural and not only survival driven.  Maybe you want to express your mood by wearing a bright eyeshadow or a bright lipstick.  On a day when you aren’t feeling expressive then just a natural look might appeal more.  Some people rarely wear makeup, but then use a little bit for a special occasion to feel nice.  Yes there is a feel good factor to wearing makeup and dressing up, it’s also a girly trait.  All the colours, sparkly and shiny things are attractive to girls. 

Actually my best friend, who never wears makeup, at age 27, developed a curiosity  when she saw me applying lipstick one time.  She then wanted to try it and now she owns 1 colourful lipstick that she uses if we go on a night out.  She was a tomboy growing up, always hanging around with boys and was never around typical girly things. 

But there is a natural curiosity around it. 

you can scream it’s for men all you want, and maybe sometimes it is, but it can be used in other unique ways too that aren’t just attraction oriented.

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by intotheblack

[John Iverson]

Keep on discussing guise, keep on sharing what you can share to my post, i'm just here reading all your comments

Just refrain from debating this kind of topic or argue.. keep it healthy okay? Thanksss.. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by John Iverson

[wwhy]

23 hours ago, Rilles said:

Im on the nurture side of the debate...

Are you saying she is a dog because she was raised by them?

I'm on neither side, its a combination of nature vs nurture. Google stories about family (eg twins) separated at birth meeting later on in life

[wwhy]

21 hours ago, Brandon Nankivell said:

What's more likely is multiple reasons bundled together, with attraction being high on the list, creativity and fun being others. It's interesting though that make-up is highly dominant and extremely common among women as a so-called creative outlet, versus all the other things that could be done as creative expression, hence the scepticism around creativity being a prime reason for make-up.

I would not call it "creative out-letting". It's more like value (beauty) expression. If you value something, you spend a lot of time and effort in it. What do you value?

[Epikur]

The survival of the most beautiful though make up is beginner level:

 

 

[Rilles]

1 hour ago, wwhy said:

Are you saying she is a dog because she was raised by them?

I'm on neither side, its a combination of nature vs nurture. Google stories about family (eg twins) separated at birth meeting later on in life

No, Im not saying she IS a dog lmao. I was posting an example of what happens when there is no culture around to create you as a human being, what you call "feminine" is most likely constructed, how much I dont know. Do you think this child would know what to choose if you gave it a doll or truck? She would just throw it away and growl at you. 

Its fascinating to me that even a simple thing as walking upright or putting on clothes has to be taught, its not obvious for a child. Nurture is probably 70% imo.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Rilles

[wwhy]

6 minutes ago, Rilles said:

what you call "feminine" is most likely constructed

To me saying "feminine" is just a "social construct" sounds really dense. Think of a woman's body? Is it different from a mans? Is that also a "social construct"? Are boobs a social construct? It's right there for you to see, and yet you stubbornly refuse to see it.

She may have been raised by dogs and act as them, and yet she will still behave like a femine dog.

Saying the feminine is a "social construct" is like saying the night or the yang is a social construct.

[wwhy]

14 minutes ago, Rilles said:

No, Im not saying she IS a dog lmao.

The fact that you still see and relate to her as a human being despite being nurtured by dogs... should give you something to consider in this whole "nature vs nurture" debate.

[Rilles]

1 minute ago, wwhy said:

To me saying "feminine" is just a "social construct" sounds really dense. Think of a woman's body? Is it different from a mans? Is that also a "social construct"? Are boobs a social construct? It's right there for you to see, and yet you stubbornly refuse to see it.

She may have been raised by dogs and act as them, and yet she will still behave like a femine dog.

Saying the feminine is a "social construct" is like saying the night or the yang is a social construct.

Feminine is not about the body, its how a woman acts, her preferences, etc. Of course her body is not a construct (atleast that I know of). We were talking about make-up in this thread, make-up is generally considered feminine.

"Femininity (also called womanliness or girlishness) is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles generally associated with women and girls. Although femininity is socially constructed,[1]research indicates that some behaviors considered feminine are biologically influenced. To what extent femininity is biologically or socially influenced is subject to debate. It is distinct from the definition of the biological female sex, as both males and females can exhibit feminine traits."

From Wikipedia

[wwhy]

3 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Feminine is not about the body, its how a woman acts, her preferences, etc. Of course her body is not a construct (atleast that I know of). We were talking about make-up in this thread, make-up is generally considered feminine.

"Femininity (also called womanliness or girlishness) is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles generally associated with women and girls. Although femininity is socially constructed,[1]research indicates that some behaviors considered feminine are biologically influenced. To what extent femininity is biologically or socially influenced is subject to debate. It is distinct from the definition of the biological female sex, as both males and females can exhibit feminine traits."

From Wikipedia

Are you saying animals like dogs and sheep do not act out feminine or masculine behavior depending on their gender? Once again, do not confuse energy and gender. A female human is just a human that usually embodies feminine energy.