Offering Advice

[LastThursday]

I'd like to improve the way I offer advice or guidance or insight.  I think and want to genuinely improve people's lives even in a small way. 

I see a lot of stuff in self help or other places that basically say: "you need to do this in that situation" or "love yourself more" or "let go" and so on. That's a prescriptive solution. I hardly ever see a descriptive solution: "you can love yourself more by pampering yourself", "you can let go by working on anxiety", "you can work on anxiety by meditating" and so on.

What are some better ways to offer advice or help? How do I improve?

[Zigzag Idiot]

I see promoting the Socratic method as a form of encouraging learning among others. This process steers away from antagonistic argumentative ways and promotes openness. The spirit of this way I also see loosely reflected in A Course In Miracles which encourages - “Teaching to Learn”. When done in the proper spirit, no antagonism is produced or attitudes of one-up-manship. Love can be experienced as individuals share perspectives from different angles.

The idea and use of the philosophers stone can dovetail well with the spirit of the Socratic method. Different ideas of what constitutes the philosophers stone can be a starting point such as the Keyserling Wheel or other ideas which represent the true nature inherent in all of us. 
To remain quiet and peaceful in the face of adversarial reactivity or arguing can also in itself help others to become more aware and open. Loosely put, this is what Gurdjieff proposed as a form of intentional suffering. For me, this is difficult at times but I try to remember and not forget myself in reactivity.

[EddieEddie1995]

I think you will never know if the advice is good or not, but like everything else, it is a muscle we develop. Before I would force stuff on to people without thinking where they are on the spiral, how will they understand my advice, do I shut up and listen or slap them in the face with truth, do I give  advice indirectly (im good at that hehe)  etc. But after some practice it comes naturally automatic. You see their body language, how they hold themselves, can they handle it, or do you even give them one (sometimes they need to suffer before they can learn) etc.

But I think the most important thing is for us to be conscious and self aware. To use our intuition of what this guy might need. 

I hope this helps <3 

Love them, and they will find the way 

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by EddieEddie1995

[LastThursday]

6 hours ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

I see promoting the Socratic method as a form of encouraging learning among others.

Buried somewhere in my memory I knew about this already, thanks for the reminder. I'll have to steep myself on the other things you mentioned, the Keyserling Wheel sounds intriguing and totally new to me. The more I hear about Gurdjieff the more I'm attracted to his ideas. I've just got to sit down and do the work in these areas.

@EddieEddie1995 I don't know where I heard it, but it went something like this: don't give someone a gift they're not ready to receive. Which, as you say requires our intuition and self awareness to be sharp.

6 hours ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

“Teaching to Learn”

Definitely something to bear in mind when trying to help someone in any way. It's a harder path, but more fruitful in the long run.

[Megan Alecia]

Socratic method maybe

Edited April 9, 2021 by Megan Alecia
Didn't know it was commented already, by I second it.

[Matt23]

I'd say first make sure the person actually wants advice.  Whether they ask you are if you offer it to them explicitly, like "do you want to know what I think?" or "can I offer you a piece of advice?".

But I'd say something more powerful than advice is listening and reflecting what you hear and empathizing/understanding the person.  Things like saying "That must be difficult" or even not saying anything at all.  Giving people questions is sometimes powerful as well. 

I often feel quite shitty when people just offer me advice without me wanting or asking for it.  Despite them wanting to help, I just feel more frustrated and unheard.  Especially if I'm expressing emotions to them, and then instead of just getting someone who's listening and trying to understand and simply reflect, I get techniques and advice about how to "fix" my issues, I feel totally unheard and that just feels like the worst.  

People often don't want advice on how to fix their issues (particularly relating to emotions or/and when they are in emotional states).  They more just want someone to listen to them and offer them consolation and understanding and compassion.  I'm not saying always.  Like if someone is in a more practical and productive or motivated state, they will probably be more pragmatic about how they go about "fixing" their issues, and then at these moments will they seek guidance and techniques etc.  But when they are down in the dumps or just feeling emotions in general, I'd say the best way to relate to that isn't with offering technical advice or fixes.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Matt23

[EddieEddie1995]

@Matt23 Nice! 

12 hours ago, LastThursday said:

don't give someone a gift they're not ready to receive

Nice!

I sometimes play the game of a messenger. To random people in my city (it is small, everyone knows eachother) I do something along this lines: "why are you wasting your life"? (Im good at doing it indirectly hehee)

Most of them get defensive or even stop talking to me, but not for  long... because they realize that the slap in the face I gave them was just to wake them up a little bit hehe 

 

[Zigzag Idiot]

3 hours ago, EddieEddie1995 said:

@Matt23 Nice! 

Nice!

I sometimes play the game of a messenger. To random people in my city (it is small, everyone knows eachother) I do something along this lines: "why are you wasting your life"? (Im good at doing it indirectly hehee)

Most of them get defensive or even stop talking to me, but not for  long... because they realize that the slap in the face I gave them was just to wake them up a little bit hehe 

 

@EddieEddie1995  The way of the Malamat or the way of blame is a high Teaching. The Messenger Jesus Christ lived it out fully. If one swats a hornets nests, repercussions show quickly and light heartedness makes for a good salve.

 

6 hours ago, Matt23 said:

I'd say first make sure the person actually wants advice.  Whether they ask you are if you offer it to them explicitly, like "do you want to know what I think?" or "can I offer you a piece of advice?".

But I'd say something more powerful than advice is listening and reflecting what you hear and empathizing/understanding the person.  Things like saying "That must be difficult" or even not saying anything at all.  Giving people questions is sometimes powerful as well. 

I often feel quite shitty when people just offer me advice without me wanting or asking for it.  Despite them wanting to help, I just feel more frustrated and unheard.  Especially if I'm expressing emotions to them, and then instead of just getting someone who's listening and trying to understand and simply reflect, I get techniques and advice about how to "fix" my issues, I feel totally unheard and that just feels like the worst.  

People often don't want advice on how to fix their issues (particularly relating to emotions or/and when they are in emotional states).  They more just want someone to listen to them and offer them consolation and understanding and compassion.  I'm not saying always.  Like if someone is in a more practical and productive or motivated state, they will probably be more pragmatic about how they go about "fixing" their issues, and then at these moments will they seek guidance and techniques etc.  But when they are down in the dumps or just feeling emotions in general, I'd say the best way to relate to that isn't with offering technical advice or fixes.

@Matt23 This is well put. In being a good listener and grounded in empathy your presence will calm and teach without anything being said, IMO.

17 hours ago, LastThursday said:

the Keyserling Wheel sounds intriguing and totally new to me. The more I hear about Gurdjieff the more I'm attracted to his ideas.

Arnold Keyserling spent some time with Gurdjieff in Paris as a student and friend. The Wheel is very holistic. Keyserling penned some right brained poetry and visions in the early 1970’s. The following is about the Wheel.

 

The Wheel is your tool with which to make sense of the world and to clear the path…

The Wheel is the foundation of the new time.

It has been built and is beginning to truly turn.

Anything not tested by the Wheel has no permanence.

The weapons of the Wheel will, unnoticed, smash false seriousness with a joke.

The Wheel is a weapon which opens the gate to inspiration to whoever entrusts himself to the dissection of the false “I.”

Taken from- https://schoolofwisdom.com/visions-and-poems/from-dark-to-life/what-is-the-wheel/

 

 

[LastThursday]

To summarise out loud for myself:

• Socratic method, or "teaching to learn".
• Metaphorical slap in the face (a.k.a. The Way of Malamat)
• Get consent or evaluate before advising, don't give someone something they're not ready for
• Empathy and listening or being still and quiet may be preferable to advising
• Asking (open) questions rather giving statements of advice
• Give advice indirectly 

Thanks guys.

[Michael569]

are you thinking of becoming a spiritual guide / therapist or a coach? 

[LastThursday]

@Michael569 it's not something that I've given deep thought to, but also not something I would dismiss outright. I guess I asked really for my own development and satisfaction. I've been in many situations were I've tried or wanted to help others, but not really had effective ways of doing so. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by LastThursday

[Zigzag Idiot]

I’m a phony if pretend to know much about the Socratic method. I know it’s the method used in Law schools and that more or less, it’s not adversarial. I watched Arnold Keyserling summarize it in a video years ago. It’s the method also for the School of Wisdom founded by Keyserling’s Father in Germany in the early twentieth century. 
The same with the Way of the Malamat. It was mentioned by Robert S. de Ropp in one of his books on inquiry - The Master Game or Self Completion and also by Maurice Nicoll in his Psychological Commentaries. Doing a search just now I see there is quite a bit to be found. It didn’t seem that long ago that I couldn’t find much about it doing a search. Looks like there is a way of Blame in all the major Religions. I was only familiar with the Christian Version.

I’m attracted to the idea of developing better skillful means in giving advice. Giving unsolicited advice has been partly in my blind spot in the past. From my own experience with this I know the value of being a good listener more so now than in the past. 
Just by looking at the forum it seems giving unsolicited advice is a fairly widespread phenomena/behavior. I think it’s fine though here if done with goodwill, sincerity, and discernment. Isn’t learning from each other kind of what the forum is about? Rhetorical questions would seem to me to be in the spirit of the Socratic method. The spirit of the Socratic method was really my intentional aim when I thought of bringing it up this morning.

[LastThursday]

4 hours ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

I’m a phony if pretend to know much about the Socratic method.

You unexpectedly bring up a good point about offering advice. Should it matter how I personally feel about the giving the advice? As long as I know the advice is sound? Is advice enhanced by not being personally attached to the outcome? Should giving help be an egoless activity?

For example, say I ask for directions (i.e. need help). The guy says: "I've never been that way myself, but I hear that taking that mountain track is the quickest way up to the monastery.". And I thank him and say, "you're the only person I've found today who knows the way up".

 

[Roy]

I think what's most important, even necessarily more than the substance or "how to" of the advice itself, is bringing yourself in line with the emotional wavelength of the person you're interacting with. To establish a degree of relatability.

You see it almost doesn't matter how technical or high quality your information is if the person in need isn't in a position to be receptive of it. What they really want to feel when they are looking for advice is to be shown the possibility of someone at their level being able to develop and grow in a particular way. It inspires them to take action if they are shown that someone who is or might have been just like them can do it.

If you're both on the same "imaginative playing field" within the interaction it feels like someone is actually there to walk them through what they need, rather than just throwing pieces of wisdom down at them from some bleachers up high.

[neovox]

Advice on giving advice. Actualized crew all the way

[LastThursday]

@neovox caught red handed! Blush. I still genuinely want know how to improve myself though. And if it helps others, then...

@Roy I see that relating to someone on their level is important.

[allislove]

On 4/8/2021 at 1:21 PM, LastThursday said:

I'd like to improve the way I offer advice or guidance or insight.  I think and want to genuinely improve people's lives even in a small way. 

I see a lot of stuff in self help or other places that basically say: "you need to do this in that situation" or "love yourself more" or "let go" and so on. That's a prescriptive solution. I hardly ever see a descriptive solution: "you can love yourself more by pampering yourself", "you can let go by working on anxiety", "you can work on anxiety by meditating" and so on.

What are some better ways to offer advice or help? How do I improve?

You don't need to think much about it. It's going to be improved by doing spiritual practices automatically. By lessening ego (opinion), by seeing your true nature, oneness in everyone - words flowing by itself, compassion arises. I'd call it giving advice from "Home" ("I am") who you always are.

20 hours ago, LastThursday said:

To summarise out loud for myself:

• Socratic method, or "teaching to learn".
• Metaphorical slap in the face (a.k.a. The Way of Malamat)
• Get consent or evaluate before advising, don't give someone something they're not ready for
• Empathy and listening or being still and quiet may be preferable to advising
• Asking (open) questions rather giving statements of advice
• Give advice indirectly 

Thanks guys.

That's a really good map though ?

[Bodhitree]

A few techniques I have used from time to time...

• Setting a good example: use anecdotes from your own life to illustrate how to do the right thing.
• Being polite: being very polite to people and asking leading questions.
• Presenting quotes: presenting a quote by a famous or respected person in which they show the way.
• Selling the advice: talking about the good results people using the advice have had.

Often before you can actually give advice, you have to engage in a little relationship building. This establishes trust and gets people to take you seriously. It helps if you can build authority, by talking about training, position, that kind of stuff. You might want to look into marketing and sales tactics. 

[EddieEddie1995]

@Bodhitree Yes! I love your post! Amazing! 

14 hours ago, Bodhitree said:

Setting a good example: use anecdotes from your own life to illustrate how to do the right thing.

This is what I mean when I say "indirectly".

I usually talk about my own mistakes so I could point out theirs in a way they don't even realise what I did there hehe

I plant seeds/viruses that slowly but shortly eats away the negative perspective and grows into a more conscious one. 

With my mastery of communication (that I just started to shine awareness on and how good I am at it) I made my girlfriend contemplate herself into realizing what God is. I will shoot a video about it ? (few months ago she was at SD blue/orange).  

Also, I will shoot a video how you can systematically change someone. I bet stage green I have to fix someone so I could assure myself I am a good person people will love it ?

 

 

[EddieEddie1995]

Just now, EddieEddie1995 said:

Also, I will shoot a video how you can systematically change someone. I bet stage green I have to fix someone so I could assure myself I am a good person people will love it ?

 

For example I implemented a time of the day where me and GF dance. She would never do that. This is the power of selfawarnes. 

I am systematically getting her Enlightened. 

After the dance, and Love (we gad orgasm and mystical exp. just dancing, I writen about it) she is open for any deep communication. Even realizing that she is God. 

 

 

EDIT/NOTE - I wanted to post the post bellow, here. But I messed up. 

Everything is connected ?

Edited April 11, 2021 by EddieEddie1995