Should Racism Be a Crime?

[Hardkill]

7 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Yet what you propose doesn’t just affect extremists. It affects everyone. To take it to the next level, imagine we had the resources to hire a police officer for every person. The police officer follows and monitors the person 24/7. This would massively reduce crime by 99.9%, yet it is also extremely invasive. People don’t want to live with a police officer looking over their shoulder 24/7. There is a balance between harm reduction and invasiveness.

I'd rather have it be much more invasive for the safety of our country. How will extremists, conservatives, and racists ever change their ways or their thinking or their beliefs? Fear and force seem to be the only things that they can only understand.

[Opo]

2 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Fear and force seem to be the only things that they can only understand.

Again you have no direct experience of real life conservatives and racists. 

The videos that you see on the internet don't represent them accurately. 

[AtheisticNonduality]

41 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

This is why cameras need to be installed in every single public space throughout the entire country. This would definitely catch tons of people within the entire US sounding racist. It also would save many more innocent minorities from being attacked or killed by racists.

I don't even need to explain why this is a bad idea.

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Opo said:

Again you have no direct experience of real life conservatives and racists. 

The videos that you see on the internet don't represent them accurately. 

The mainstream media seem to accurately portray how selfish, primitive, and hateful practically all conservatives and racists are. 

55 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

I don't even need to explain why this is a bad idea.

Actually, I think you do.

[ted73104]

2 hours ago, Hardkill said:

This is why cameras need to be installed in every single public space throughout the entire country. This would definitely catch tons of people within the entire US sounding racist. It also would save many more innocent minorities from being attacked or killed by racists.

I don't think this is a good idea. Racist acts and tendencies cannot be fixed by enforcing some sort of rule or law on people. Putting it simply, you can't force a person to be non-racist. Fixing racist tendencies in a person requires him to go deep into his own psychology to find root causes of those thoughts/beliefs/actions. Putting cameras and surveillance everywhere would catch a few serious racist assaults, but would catch a ton of unconscious small racist acts. These small racist acts on camera could bring about a bunch of unnecessary court filings and more friction between different groups. These minority groups might also take advantage of these opportunities to lash out in some way.

Racism can only be resolved through love and understanding. Using the enforcement of law method would eventually stir more hatred and misunderstanding.

[Hardkill]

2 minutes ago, ted73104 said:

I don't think this is a good idea. Racist acts and tendencies cannot be fixed by enforcing some sort of rule or law on people. Putting it simply, you can't force a person to be non-racist. Fixing racist tendencies in a person requires him to go deep into his own psychology to find root causes of those thoughts/beliefs/actions. Putting cameras and surveillance everywhere would catch a few serious racist assaults, but would catch a ton of unconscious small racist acts. These small racist acts on camera could bring about a bunch of unnecessary court filings and more friction between different groups. These minority groups might also take advantage of these opportunities to lash out in some way.

Racism can only be resolved through love and understanding. Using the enforcement of law method would eventually stir more hatred and misunderstanding.

Then why is US becoming more politically divided than ever before? Why are more and more republicans are shifting further to the right?

Edited April 9, 2021 by Hardkill

[ted73104]

35 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

The mainstream media seem to accurately portray how selfish, primitive, and hateful practically all conservatives and racists are. 

No they do not. Mainstream media is cherry-picking the "racism" in conservatives for political gain. I think that is very obvious if you look at CNN or MSNBC. I wouldn't say they don't care about the real issues, but they are definitely doing this in a way for build a narrative that overall supports the democratic party.

[Hardkill]

5 minutes ago, ted73104 said:

No they do not. Mainstream media is cherry-picking the "racism" in conservatives for political gain. I think that is very obvious if you look at CNN or MSNBC. I wouldn't say they don't care about the real issues, but they are definitely doing this in a way for build a narrative that overall supports the democratic party.

You sound like either a conservative or progressive populist who doesn't want to accept the reality of our country. Leo has talked about this before.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Hardkill

[ted73104]

2 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Then why is US becoming more politically divided than ever before? Why are more and more republicans are shifting further to the right?

This questions seems to be a bit off from the previous question being discussed.

But are you talking about the politicians or the American people? I think the US would seem to be more and more politically divided due to the kind of topics that is being thrown about whether in the media or on the Internet. However, are Americans more divided than ever now? I don't think so, the division was always there and hasn't changed much. 

Only the talking points the politicians are using have become more and more extreme. This doesn't mean the politicians' view has changed either, they're only doing this to grab more attention.

[ted73104]

3 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

You sound like either a conservative or progressive populist who doesn't want to accept the reality of our country. Leo has talked about this before.

Ahhh, but whether or not we really know the actual reality of the conservatives could use some more study, observation, insight, and understanding, right? It is easy to just demonize them, but they're just ordinary people like you and me. Only the background and environment where they grew up is different.

[Opo]

58 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

The mainstream media seem to accurately portray how selfish, primitive, and hateful practically all conservatives and racists are. 

You're the type of person that watches sjw cringe compilations and assumes all progressives are like that. 

[BadHippie]

@Forestluv

Quote

 

"Overcoming the past in a meaningful way is relative".

Do most Germans consider Hitler a hero? Are there hundreds of statues of Hitler all over Germany glorifying him as a brave hero who fought for a good cause? Is there a massive 20m Hitler statue in the center of Berlin glorifying the bravery of Hitler? Do most Germans take pride in the fact that their descendants were Nazis - as if it was a noble thing? Do German communities and government fight against anyone who tries to deface or remove a Hitler statue? Are there laws against defacing or removal Hitler statues? 

If not, Germany is relatively more advanced than the U.S. 

 

I agree that Germany probably is relatively more advanced than America. I´ve never been to America so I can´t say for sure though. 

Sure we understood Hitler was "bad". But we never understood collectively why Naziism happened, and now fascism is on the rise again here and people don´t even realize.

[vladorion]

8 hours ago, Hardkill said:

I don't see how republican conservatives, alt-right extremists, and racists in our country will be able to increase their level of consciousness no matter how much we educate them.

The amount of ego and a sense of superiority in your posts is baffling. You're nowhere near the level of consciousness you think you are. You project all your crap onto conservatives, 'alt-right extremists' etc., yet you sound exactly like an extremist.

[snowyowl]

2 hours ago, vladorion said:

Sure we understood Hitler was "bad". But we never understood collectively why Naziism happened, and now fascism is on the rise again here and people don´t even realize.

We have some pretty good clues though.

• Germany was hammered with compensation by the allies after WW1. Added to the 1920s depression the economy completely tanked. Massive unemployment and hyper-inflation.
• Conspiracy theories that Germany only lost WW1 because of Jewish and left wing unpatriotic people. 
• Fascism was already on the rise across Europe as a reaction against communism and the Russian revolution. Checkout Spain, Italy, Portugal also had fascist governments. And even here in England there was a fascist vs communist conflict. 
• Germany hadn't been democratic very long, only really since the end of WW1 and the Weimar republic was not so strong. 

[BadHippie]

@snowyowl

Yes, we have. Sadly they don't teach most of the relevant stuff in school, so a lot of Germans don't know these "facts". 

[AtheisticNonduality]

Surveillance states can be misused.

[DocWatts]

7 hours ago, snowyowl said:

We have some pretty good clues though.

• Germany was hammered with compensation by the allies after WW1. Added to the 1920s depression the economy completely tanked. Massive unemployment and hyper-inflation.
• Conspiracy theories that Germany only lost WW1 because of Jewish and left wing unpatriotic people. 
• Fascism was already on the rise across Europe as a reaction against communism and the Russian revolution. Checkout Spain, Italy, Portugal also had fascist governments. And even here in England there was a fascist vs communist conflict. 
• Germany hadn't been democratic very long, only really since the end of WW1 and the Weimar republic was not so strong. 

Good list. And an additional point worth considering :

• The Anti-Semitic Conspiracy beliefs that formed the basis of Nazi ideology wasn't something that was new ot novel at time, but rather the logical endpoint of attitudes that were already prevalent in the United States and Europe. The anti-Semitism of Henry Ford in particular was something of an ideological inspiration for Hitler.

[Matt23]

On 4/7/2021 at 1:00 PM, SS10 said:

What unintended side effects could come from prosecuting racists?

I feel one of the best ways to handle racism, probably if it's not the hostile and "attacking" (not necessarily physically) type, is to show them understanding and give them a space to express themselves safely (maybe to a degree of course).  I say this cuz I watched this interview of a woman who was expressing that she didn't want black people in her neighborhood.  You could see the woman was timid to express these views since she thought she'd be attacked by the press.  But the woman interviewer said something like "No, it's ok.  I don't believe in your views, but it's ok to say what you want."  I feel this sort of let the woman who was expressing racist views be more open to the "other side" and not see them as enemies, perhaps increasing the possibilities of questioning her own beliefs and being more open to beliefs of "the other side."  

Obviously things are more nuanced, like if someone was verbally berating someone, I don't think this would work.  But, hey, it might throw them off as well since they might be expecting counter-defenses etc..

Kinda like a dog will only chase you if you run, or, you only get counter-resistance if you resist (I'm imagining pushing a baby's hand, and that only when you pish do they push.  But if you relax they also relax).  

As for criminalizing hate speech.... hmmm.. I dunno about that.  I mean, do we have any laws against verbal assaults?  I haven't thought about this at all, but my first feeling is that it's a tricky thing and borders on sort of being not totally clear or right for me.  Like, I dunno... I guess I don't think verbal assaults should be a punishable crime (including hate speech).  That's my first feeling-thought.  I dunno, maybe hate-speech... but it's a fine line for me.  Mixed feelings about it.  Like, that seems a bit too much and too fa and moving into the dystopian theme.  Too much control isn't a good thing.  We gotta have room for people to feel free to express themselves and even vent etc. for one thing since if people, or any animal, feels it can't freely/safely express or be itself, it usually backlashes even worse down the road.   That's not the only consideration, but those are my first thoughts.  

Also, it might depend on where one lives (social, political environments etc.).  Like, if your population is largely Red or something or Blue, even Orange, then trying to force control over speech would probably be a disaster and do more harm than good.  But if your society was at, say Green or higher, it wouldn't even be an issue to begin with so you wouldn't need those laws.  

Edited April 10, 2021 by Matt23

[hoodrow trillson]

We can’t even fundamentally get rid of basic lookism in human nature within societies and now (for example) we’re going to have laws that make racism a crime?

”That woman is old and fat”

”That man looks creepy”

”This short guy is a wimp”

”Wow that famous person sure looks smart ?”

”I trust that handsome guy”

These are things that us humans scan almost subconsciously (wether you admit it or not) every single day.  Some people just highly dislike the way a certain race looks.  And some never had any indoctrination from their parents or a traumatic event in their lives growing up.  They’re just that way because they never turned that portion of their thinking off—they went full send on that one.  Most level-headed sane people realize “ah, so stereotypes and generalizations are bullshit” and tune that part of their brain that classifies people who look different than them as “others”.

I think racism is such a barbaric pure trash way of behaving and believing that I think if racism becomes a crime—it would make things worse because most people would be even more resentful towards others.

 

 

[snowyowl]

I'm looking at this terms of process diagrams, inputs -> process -> outputs. 

Inputs might be the racist thoughts and feelings people hold; criminalising those is like having censorship, cancel culture, taboos, thought police etc, which is the controversial aspect. My view is that stage is better, and more effectively tackled with education, although it's a long process. 

Racist outputs are already criminalised in many countries, this targets the impact of the racist behaviour. 

So an example might be an employer holding racist beliefs (inputs) conducts a recruitment that's biased racially (process), leading to someone being refused a job because of their race (output). The output and process can be prosecuted in law, rightly in my view, but not really the inputs.