Do Things Exist Independently Of Me?

[Mason Riggle]

"Do Things Exist Independently Of Me?"

Another way to contemplate this-  "do 'things' exist 'separate' from 'me'?  

Look for the 'you' that is separate from 'that which is not you'.  Is 'your hand' separate from 'you'? Are 'you' your hand?  'you' seem to be 'aware of your hand'.. is 'your hand' aware of itself? It can be recognized that the 'separation' between 'you' and 'that which is not you' doesn't exist. 

"I have no other self than the totality of that which I am aware." - Alan Watts. 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[SQAAD]

@Leo Gura

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What if, what you were conscious of is precisely all that existed?

I can understand how Everything is a hallucination But i don't understand the mechanics of how some things work. For example i 'feel' that there was a Big Bang and then earth. This Earth will exist even when i die and experience something else. 

I can understand that Earth is imaginary but still i believe it will continue to exist even when my body dies and maybe i am born into another Universe.

All of what i've explained is basically what i don't understand and haven't reconciled yet. 

Edited April 6, 2021 by SQAAD

[SQAAD]

@Leo Gura

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What if, what you were conscious of is precisely all that existed?

Does this mean that the bottle of water exists when i am no longer conscious of it? I was conscious of it few moments ago so i can assume that it exists or will continue to exist even when i die.

[Leo Gura]

@SQAAD Nothing exists outside your imagination of it.

The Earth is just some shit you're imagining. Like a unicorn.

[Sempiternity]

5 hours ago, SQAAD said:

 

Does this mean that the bottle of water exists when i am no longer conscious of it? I was conscious of it few moments ago so i can assume that it exists or will continue to exist even when i die.

Nothing exists outside direct experience. However unbelievable it may seem. Now is all that exists. There is no "few moments ago". If it is not Now in your direct experience, it is only exists as a though that is happening Now. 

[Inliytened1]

5 hours ago, SQAAD said:

 

I can understand how Everything is a hallucination But i don't understand the mechanics of how some things work. For example i 'feel' that there was a Big Bang and then earth. This Earth will exist even when i die and experience something else. 

How could it exist outside how it is being held within your consciousness right now?  Might need to apply some intuition here to get it - The Big Bang actually exists as a thought in your mind, and it's impossible to exist any other way.

[snowyowl]

1 hour ago, Sempiternity said:

Nothing exists outside direct experience.

First thought. How do we know this? We have no evidence of what does or doesn't exist outside human experience (including using scientific instruments to aid us). Surely what we can say is we experience what we experience; what happens in the absence of observation is a mystery which we may choose to fill with logical deductions. Or not, just leave as a mystery. 

Second thought. On the principle that nothing = everything, how about if everything exists outside direct experience? Ie that experience isn't a thing. 

[LastThursday]

Look at the glass. Close your eyes. Open your eyes again and the glass is still there. Pure coincidence. That's how direct experience works. It's like reflections in a hall of mirrors or echoes in a cave.

[Inliytened1]

8 minutes ago, snowyowl said:

 Surely what we can say is we experience what we experience; what happens in the absence of observation is a mystery which we may choose to fill with logical deductions. Or not, just leave as a mystery. 

 

No you can have total understanding of the nature of reality through awakening.  And there will be no denying it...

 

[snowyowl]

@Inliytened1 but if direct experience is everything (I won't call it 'mine') then I'm already omniscient from the beginning, because I'm aware of my experience by definition. So why do I need "awakening"?

[Moksha]

5 minutes ago, snowyowl said:

@Inliytened1 but if direct experience is everything (I won't call it 'mine') then I'm already omniscient from the beginning, because I'm aware of my experience by definition. So why do I need "awakening"?

Consciousness has the capacity to voluntarily sleep. Simple as that

[Inliytened1]

8 minutes ago, snowyowl said:

@Inliytened1. So why do I need "awakening"?

Well you don't need awakening...  But if you want Truth then it can be known for certain.  Right now you are in a traditional, what you could call normal, dualistic state of consciousness - as am i - but with awakening you will access a non-dual Infinitely higher state of consciousness.  That's the claim anyway - up to you to find out if its true.

 

[snowyowl]

@Moksha  @Inliytened1  what you both seem to be implying is that my present experience is limited, finite, not everything, falling short of the full awakening. Ok, maybe it is, in which case direct experience isn't always everything but only for a fully enlightened person? 

I'm not just being argumentative for the sake of it, but contemplating out loud on whether this moment (dual or nondual) is already complete, or if I need to go on seeking nondual experiences. I'm not suffering either way.

[Moksha]

14 minutes ago, snowyowl said:

@Moksha  @Inliytened1  what you both seem to be implying is that my present experience is limited, finite, not everything, falling short of the full awakening. Ok, maybe it is, in which case direct experience isn't always everything but only for a fully enlightened person? 

I'm not just being argumentative for the sake of it, but contemplating out loud on whether this moment (dual or nondual) is already complete, or if I need to go on seeking nondual experiences. I'm not suffering either way.

You got it  All experience is limited and finite. It has a beginning and an ending. Life is inherently conditional, and always transient. With every life, there must be death. Nothing is needed, beyond who you already are, and always are. If you are not suffering, it seems that you have already realized this. It is rare not to suffer, and to simply be. Enjoy the not-suffering of the dream.

[snowyowl]

@Moksha thanks, nice answer What it feels like to me is, my experience flip-flops between dual and nondual, well mostly dual and time bound with nondual glimpses. I'm not sure why but could be down to my animal survival instinct. As long as I'm a human it'll be this way I guess, in and out. But my instinct is, there's deeper 'ins' waiting to be discovered. 

[Moksha]

@snowyowl We create the relative cosmos of duality for a reason, right? Nonduality is changeless, timeless, depthless. We are the abode of duality. We dream, because the discovery of our Self is delightful, otherwise what is there to discover?

[SQAAD]

@Inliytened1

7 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

How could it exist outside how it is being held within your consciousness right now?  Might need to apply some intuition here to get it - The Big Bang actually exists as a thought in your mind, and it's impossible to exist any other way.

I can imagine that for example Earth exists outside of my Consciousness. So when i die for example, and maybe reincarnate as an Alien in another planet the Earth still continues to exist.

I mean that the Earth is maybe being 'held' by the Consciousness of God whether i perceive it or not. That's how i envision it.

Edited April 7, 2021 by SQAAD

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

@Inliytened1

I mean that the Earth is maybe being 'held' by the Consciousness of God whether i perceive it or not. That's how i envision it.

But YOU are God. So if it's not held by you, it's not held at all.

Right now you are holding that some God other than you is holding the Earth. But what you're missing is that it's YOU who's holding that some God is holding the Earth. That's what you're holding! And thus the Earth seems to exist for you as something solid and real beyond your mind. But those are just layers within your mind.

You are assuming there exists someone "other" who can hold things for you. But there are no others, since you are Infinite. "Others" are what you're holding while imagining that they are holding something for you.

Your mind is resisting understanding this because you must resist it in order to construct a reality with includes anyone other than you. Your mind is constantly in a process of constructing "others". You are sorta committed to that game. If you ever stop playing that game, all others will literally cease to exist.

It's not so simple as others not existing. Others exist for you if you imagine they do. But if you stop imagining them, they will all cease to exist. Your core confusion is that you imagine that things can exist outside your imagination. Which is just a pure absurdity since your imagination is Infinite and Absolute.

[Sempiternity]

57 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But YOU are God. So if it's not held by you, it's not held at all.

Right now you are holding that some God other than you is holding the Earth. But what you're missing is that it's YOU who's holding that some God is holding the Earth. That's what you're holding! And thus the Earth seems to exist for you as something solid and real beyond your mind. But those are just layers within your mind.

You are assuming there exists someone "other" who can hold things for you. But there are no others, since you are Infinite. "Others" are what you're holding while imagining that they are holding something for you.

Your mind is resisting understanding this because you must resist it in order to construct a reality with includes anyone other than you. Your mind is constantly in a process of constructing "others". You are sorta committed to that game. If you ever stop playing that game, all others will literally cease to exist.

It's not so simple as others not existing. Others exist for you if you imagine they do. But if you stop imagining them, they will all cease to exist. Your core confusion is that you imagine that things can exist outside your imagination. Which is just a pure absurdity since your imagination is Infinite and Absolute.

So is a good way of explaining this, that I am all of my bubble of perception. All that is within my consciousness is all that exists, and nothing outside of my perception exists. So this, 'my' bubble, is the entire universe. But "other people" have their bubble of perception. They are not real, as they are their bubble of consciousness. And nothing exists outside of their perception. So they have their universe. All universes are all the illusion/Maya, and are all the construct of one mind. Does that kinda cover it? 

[SQAAD]

@Leo Gura

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

 

Your mind is resisting understanding this because you must resist it in order to construct a reality with includes anyone other than you. Your mind is constantly in a process of constructing "others". You are sorta committed to that game. If you ever stop playing that game, all others will literally cease to exist.

It's not so simple as others not existing. Others exist for you if you imagine they do. But if you stop imagining them, they will all cease to exist. 

Very interesting. I want to experience other ceasing to exist to be honest. And i have some previous experiences of that nature

I assume when you say that others will cease to exist, you mean a radical recontextualization. I am probably gonna still be able to see the shape of my mother or a bird outside .